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Post subject: Re: US Vintage Stratocaster 77
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:24 am
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OK, back to basics.
Seems the forum opinion is slightly leaning towards "legit but refinished and with non-original plastics".
As for price level in the US, my guess is somewhere in the 400$ - 800$ area.


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Post subject: Re: US Vintage Stratocaster 77
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:08 am
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400 $ for the real vintage USA Stratocaster? In fact, in Europe for that price is possible only to buy the Mexican stratocaster.

For this strat I know only the fact that the body was repainted to this white colour and the plastic has been changed.


Last edited by Gleb Novikov on Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: US Vintage Stratocaster 77
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:09 pm
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Hardtail drops the value a bit.

A good refinish drops that value by 50%.

And assuming the color balance of the pics is accurate and it's refinished in a non-Fender shade of white, the refin may lower the value by more than 50%.
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Since you asked for value estimates to be given in US Dollars, we all assumed you wanted an estimate for what that guitar would sell for in the US. Values in other parts of the world may be different.
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But I do think $400 is too low. (Assuming that it is indeed original and the only major issue is the refinish.)

We're pretty sure the body is refinished, but we haven't discussed the neck. It's so perfect that it may be refinished too. But given the perfect condition of the case, maybe the neck really is mint. The neck might be worth $400 by itself.
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I'm not 100% sure the body has been refinished. Most digital cameras have a feature called "auto white balance" -- it chooses the lightest item in the frame and adjusts it to be pure white.

The lack of ghosting under the pickguard reinforces the idea that it's been refinished. But again could be a camera artifact.

And it's possible the guitar really has been in the case, under a bed or in a closet, mostly undisturbed for 40 years.


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Post subject: Re: US Vintage Stratocaster 77
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:07 pm
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strayedstrater wrote:
I'm not 100% sure the body has been refinished. Most digital cameras have a feature called "auto white balance" -- it chooses the lightest item in the frame and adjusts it to be pure white.

I'm also looking at the grain at the bottom of the PU cavities.
Everything I've seen from that era (and after) almost seems to have the paint "puddled" in that area, with rough "spiky" spots, and a heavy collection of buffing compound residue.
From that and the appearance of the neck pocket, I'm thinking this one has been chemically stripped down through the Fullerplast to the bare wood.

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Post subject: Re: US Vintage Stratocaster 77
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:30 am
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Well obviously the body has been refinished. You don't get paint in a chip recess around a screw hole in an original finish. The pint in the PUP cavities is much too thick to be original and I assume is just sprayed over shielding paint. I don't see any indication of chemical stripping as it would have contaminated the neck cavity and removed the shielding paint.

And what is that strange rectangle under the pickguard all about?

Is it an original body. I don't know but it looks like it might well be to me but has been refinished without shadow of doubt.

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Post subject: Re: US Vintage Stratocaster 77
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:56 am
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Gleb Novikov wrote:
400 $ for the real vintage USA Stratocaster? In fact, in Europe for that price is possible only to buy the Mexican stratocaster.

I don't want to turn this into a quarrel. Like I said, I was only guessing - and I don't mind at all if I'm totally wrong here.

But US prices are very different from what we here in Europe are used to;
Fender Aficionado wrote:
I picked up my '75 Fender strat all original without original case 2 1/2 yrs ago on CL for $500.

And this white Strat you're asking about; hardtail, refin, other mysterious (= not explained) features, very little background info...
Personally, this guitar doesn't appeal to me at all. And generally, I can't see one single reason why someone (in the US) would pay anything even close to what all-original, good condition seventies Strats go for. It's not a collector grade instrument, it's a player's guitar - and for that, in the roughly 1000-1500+ price class you're probably hoping for, there are real many, IMHO more appealing options.

But on the "vintage" part... (Still merely my personal opinions...)
I always smile when that term is used for seventies guitars. It may actually be correct - in the sense that the 70's Strats are more than 25 but less than 50 years old. But I really don't consider them "vintage" like the pre-CBS guitars. (Maybe one's own age correlates to what one considers vintage...)
Seventies Strats were produced in big numbers, so they are easily available - buyers have options, and collectors (if they want to invest on these at all) try to find the original&mint ones. And they are often considered as the low quality period of Strats, so newer 4-bolt models may be what a player looks for.
All in all, I can't see the seventies Strats (in general) ever hitting the ten-thousand-and-way-above price tags - not even when they turn "antique" in the 2020's.

But I'll keep my thumbs up you happen to find that Mr./Ms. Richardson and he/she has been looking for this instrument for years to buy it back at any price. :wink:


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Post subject: Re: US Vintage Stratocaster 77
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:35 pm
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I still adhere to the original meaning of "vintage", as Gruhn and Wheeler explained the term back in the early '70s in their columns in Guitar Player Magazine.

(And yes, the vintage craze began in the late '60s/early '70s, though it wasn't really mainstream until the '80s.)

Vintage was used in the same way as it refers to wines. Good years and bad years for a particular wine. (A particular vinter's '64 Pinot Noir might be a good vintage, while another '64 Pinot Noir from a different vinyard might be a bad vintage.)

It had nothing to do with a guitar being old. A '59 Les Paul was barely a teenager back then, but it was considered a great vintage. A '53 Les Paul was older and the first year model, but due to its weird trapeze bridge and different neck angle and top carve it was only worth a fraction of later models. '59 was a great year for Gibson and Fender models in general, but in the early '70s a '59 Harmony wasn't vintage. Just a cheap used guitar that was kind of funky cool, but not valuable or collectable.

And back then, it was "common knowledge" that 3-bolt bullet truss rod Strats and Les Paul Deluxes would never be "vintage" and would never significantly appreciate in value.

As vintage became mainstream in the '80s, most people were already priced out of the market for clean '50s Strats and Les Pauls. And only wealthy people could afford '50s Explorers and Flying V's. (Unless you got super lucky and found an owner who had no idea what those were worth.)

So people started collecting anything that was old.

'70s Strats and Les Pauls inspired the vintage movement -- because the '50s versions were so much better. Ironic that those guitars are now "vintage".

Even Gruhn has grudgingly accepted that the guitars he used to belittle are now part of the vintage market.
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I kinda like CBS's and Norlins. They aren't terrible guitars, they're pieces of history, and they have their own charms.

But every MIM Classic'70s I've played stomped all over my '75 Strat.

And if I still had my Les Paul Deluxe I'd sell it in a heartbeat and buy three LP Studios or Tributes that are a little better. (Or a Historic R6 or R7 that's a lot better.)


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Post subject: Re: US Vintage Stratocaster 77
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:41 pm
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CB91710 and John Sims, you've convinced me that it's refinished. I didn't download/enlarge the pics, just looked at the thumbnails.

In my defense I did say it was very questionable and needed a close appraisal, just from perusing the small pics.


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Post subject: Re: US Vintage Stratocaster 77
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:44 pm
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John Sims wrote:
I don't see any indication of chemical stripping as it would have contaminated the neck cavity and removed the shielding paint.
I don't think I'm seeing shielding paint (and did a '77 have shielding paint anyway?)... I am seeing no stamps or markings in the neck pocket, and, IMHO, far too much woodgrain in the bottom of the pickup cavities. You would probably know better than I, but everything I remember from that era, almost seemed like the cavities were plasti-coated, which buried any grain.
Quote:
And what is that strange rectangle under the pickguard all about?
Interesting in that is very close to where a '77 would have had its serial number sticker on the back of the pickguard.
Quote:
Is it an original body. I don't know but it looks like it might well be to me but has been refinished without shadow of doubt.
Agreed. Just as the locating hole in the bridge cavity threw me (never had a hardtail apart), I've never seen an aftermarket body with that, and as was pointed out, the edge radius and forearm relief look correct for that era. I really had to look for those because the color tends to mask some details like that.

These examples on Strat Central show a 77 and 79.
http://www.strat-central.com/70sstrats/ ... bay010.jpg
http://www.strat-central.com/70sstrats/ ... es/005.jpg
From this one:
http://www.strat-central.com/70sstrats/ ... es/003.jpg
It looks like the '79 (or at least "S9" serial number) has shielding paint, but the '77 does not.

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Post subject: Re: US Vintage Stratocaster 77
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:25 pm
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When I referred to shielding paint in the cavities, I was thinking of that being a mod done when it had the original finish, done at the same time as the shielding paint on the white pickguard. Then stripped or painted over during the refinish.

I think that's what other mentions of shielding paint refer to.

And early on I commented on the darkness/aging of the bare wood in the neck pocket. Ash is a very pale wood and I wondered why that had darkened but the paint hadn't.

But the darkness of the grain makes me wonder if it had been black or sunburst originally, and chemically stripped -- leaving some remant embedded in the grain.


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Post subject: Re: US Vintage Stratocaster 77
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:11 am
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I have a general question: how refinishment (i am not sure how to write this term correctly :lol: ) such as changing of a color of the guitar body may negatively alter the quality of its wood? Why it so strongly may influence the price of the instrument? As I have checked on the sites like ebay, in Europe it's not possible to find a vintage 70th strat in perfect conditions cheaper than 2000 euro.

Gleb


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Post subject: Re: US Vintage Stratocaster 77
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:53 am
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Refinishing doesn't affect the quality of the wood, the quality of the sound, the playability, or any of the things by which normal guitars are judged.

Have you ever watched "Antiques Roadshow" or similar shows on TV? Person brings in an old brass lamp to be appraised, and the appraiser tells him that because the old patina was polished off the lamp has lost much of its value.

Another person brings in a 200 year old piece of furniture. And the appraiser shakes his head and says because it was refinished a hundred years ago it's only worth a fraction of what it would be worth with the original finish. Even if the original finish was in terrible condition.

Antiques and vintage collectables are judged differently than normal commodities.
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In this day and age of internet shopping and next day shipping, I don't completely understand why vintage American guitars that are already in Europe command higher prices than they would here in the US. Maybe import taxes and tariffs, currency exchange rates, Customs hassles, shipping & insurance costs make it prohibitive to buy from the US. Plus the concern about buying without playing it first.

There are fewer vintage Fenders and Gibsons in Europe than in the US. But there's fairly strong demand. So people pay prices for refinished, modified guitars that would get them a 10/10 mint condition all-original guitar in the US.


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Post subject: Re: US Vintage Stratocaster 77
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:00 am
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Of course the reverse is true in some cases. Vintage Marshalls, HiWatts, Voxes are less expensive in the UK than in the US.


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Post subject: Re: US Vintage Stratocaster 77
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:37 am
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" As I have checked on the sites like ebay, in Europe it's not possible to find a vintage 70th strat in perfect conditions cheaper than 2000 euro. "

Just to be clear, do you mean "perfect original condition" or do you mean "refinished and in perfect cosmetic condition"?

In the US, a moderately worn, damaged original finish is worth significantly more than a perfect refinish.

And "perfect refinish" means that it has to be a color that Fender used. A US collector looking at that pure white finish would subtract the cost of re-refinishing it before bidding on it.


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Post subject: Re: US Vintage Stratocaster 77
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:18 am
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and what is possible to say regarding this guy from 70th ?

https://www.zikinf.com/annonces/dispann ... ce=1541387

As I have found the conditions of the neck are not very good, aren't it?


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