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Post subject: Are valve amps in the decline...even with Strat players?
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:21 am
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Strat players are perhaps some of the more conservative of musicians enjoying the simple values of tradition etc...

So are we leaving valves behind yet?

I'll admit that, considering all the issues with valves, and the massive leaps forward we have seen in digital and solid state technology of late I can't see me buying another valve amp.

I have four (last count) 5w all valve amps which are damn fine sounding little beasts. I have a Marshall valve rack stereo rig, a 50w Mashall valve combo, a 100W WEM head, and other valve stuff, but still, for home use, my THR5 seems to be the weapon of choice.

I couldn't justify a Kemper but have been pondering the BOSS Katana 100W head as an option or the THR100 double amp for stereo.

I am also following with interest the VOX NuTube exploits.

2 years ago, in my mind, the question wasn't even worth considering but I think we have now reached that tipping point.

What think you?

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Post subject: Re: Are valve amps in the decline...even with Strat players?
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:00 am
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I think the old timers will never leave them behind, the younger people coming up, I think some day they will. With the high cost of tube amps and the weight, they will look for other options. Some will go back to them, just like people raised on CD's and MP3's are going back to LP's.

But I think the future is bleak for the tube amp. :(

8)

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Post subject: Re: Are valve amps in the decline...even with Strat players?
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:10 am
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omar59 wrote:
I think the old timers will never leave them behind...


:-) Well being the wrong side of 50 (or right side subject to how you view it) I guess I am in that category. I think you are right, to an extent, as some of us experienced the first wave of solid state amps which, compared to valve, were pretty awful.

I have only just stepped away from the homely glow of valves but the size, weight, convenience, stability and robustness of these new technology amps is a bit of a game changer. I think it is only very recently that the economically available computing power and speed harnessed in these little boxes of magic has made them viable.

There will always be valves (if only as reference pieces) in the same way digital photography hasn't completely obliterated the old chemical methods of image capture.

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Post subject: Re: Are valve amps in the decline...even with Strat players?
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:38 am
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I’m not in the market for a new amp at present but if I was I’d be looking at the ‘64 DRRI or maybe a used VVRI like SA’s.
I have a digital pedal board now, which I would not have envisioned 5 years ago but amps are different in my mind and I don’t see myself switching anytime soon.
The Katana 100 is on my list of amps to try though.
I’ve stood and watched while others have played them but it’s a different experience playing yourself.

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Post subject: Re: Are valve amps in the decline...even with Strat players?
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:15 pm
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Well tbh I have not tried many new solid state amps but it will always be tubes for me.
Maybe I am biased teehee :D


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Post subject: Re: Are valve amps in the decline...even with Strat players?
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:46 pm
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I actually just went the other way. Have always had solid state or hybrid amps and just bought my first tube amp (DSL40) and maybe be it’s just me but even the hybrid amps don’t sound as warm or responsive as an all tube amp.

Had 2 hybrids (just sold one) each with one 12ax7, and the reality is one tube is not going to give you the tone and feel that 6 tubes give.

Also, one of my hybrid amps is the Vox AD120VT and it’s heavier than my DSL. Granted it’s a 2x12 and the DSL is a 1x12 but at the end of the day I’m still lugging the amps around and weight is weight.

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Post subject: Re: Are valve amps in the decline...even with Strat players?
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:41 pm
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I don't think good valve amps will go away, ever! Some downward price fluctuations maybe, hopefully w/ all the new tech stuff coming out.
Sure there are some new technologies out that are very good sounding and relatively inexpensive, but tubes will never be replaced only harder to find and more expensive.
Modeling has come a long way and the circuit copy amps are really high tech.
Anybody that really enjoys playing, will enjoy it even more on raw tube dynamics.
Some styles may be a bit more limited in selection and cost.
I need at least one more valve amp, a Marshall 50/100watt head and cab from the 60-70's.
And of course I still want 10 or 20 other various models from the 50-60's.
If you don't own a valve/tube amp, find/buy an affordable one that suits your playing style, stock up on replacement valves and play it forever.


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Post subject: Re: Are valve amps in the decline...even with Strat players?
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:23 pm
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As far as playing at gigs, I haven't seen a guitarist using anything but a tube amp
around these parts. Most have been Strat players too. I'll admit though that I do
like the G-DEC for recording and practicing. The settings can be tweaked for some great
tones at low volumes.

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Post subject: Re: Are valve amps in the decline...even with Strat players?
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:23 pm
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At one time I used what I consider one of the best amps of all time the Super Reverb. The problem with amps like that for older guys like me is they are just too heavy. I love tube amps but I mostly use a Roland Blues Cube which is a great solid state amp. Quilter also makes really nice solid state amps. Valves/tubes aren't going away but I think a lot of gigging musicians are looking at the newer generation of solid state amps with a bit more respect. Jazz players and bass players have long accepted solid state amps and I think more guitarists in the future will give the better ones a serious look.


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Post subject: Re: Are valve amps in the decline...even with Strat players?
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:29 pm
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omar59 wrote:
I think the old timers will never leave them behind, the younger people coming up, I think some day they will. With the high cost of tube amps and the weight, they will look for other options. Some will go back to them, just like people raised on CD's and MP3's are going back to LP's.

But I think the future is bleak for the tube amp. :(

8)

As an old timer (born in the '50's) I'll confirm that I hold on to my tube amps - mostly big Fenders (Showman and Twins) and a couple of Standels (25L15 and 100L15) and a Mesa Boogie (Mk1) in there. That said, I do also play out often with a solid state Quilter Micro-Pro 200. It's light weight, loud and clean (I'm not an overdrive or distortion player). The future for tube amps is indeed bleak - unfortunately. I think it follows just from the fact that electric guitar sales are in decline.


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Post subject: Re: Are valve amps in the decline...even with Strat players?
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:01 pm
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Nokie wrote:
omar59 wrote:
I think the old timers will never leave them behind, the younger people coming up, I think some day they will. With the high cost of tube amps and the weight, they will look for other options. Some will go back to them, just like people raised on CD's and MP3's are going back to LP's.

But I think the future is bleak for the tube amp. :(

8)

As an old timer (born in the '50's) I'll confirm that I hold on to my tube amps - mostly big Fenders (Showman and Twins) and a couple of Standels (25L15 and 100L15) and a Mesa Boogie (Mk1) in there. That said, I do also play out often with a solid state Quilter Micro-Pro 200. It's light weight, loud and clean (I'm not an overdrive or distortion player). The future for tube amps is indeed bleak - unfortunately. I think it follows just from the fact that electric guitar sales are in decline.
I'm an old timer as well and I don't see an interest in this kind of equipment. We're doomed to electronic computer junk. Hang on to your old recordings. :)


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Post subject: Re: Are valve amps in the decline...even with Strat players?
Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:03 am
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A lot of the replies are as I would have expected, and indeed how I would have commented even 6 months ago but I suggest have an open mind,

There is nothing to beat the sound and feel of a valve amp when its cooking but, as most of my playing is at home, this is something I rarely get to enjoy these days. Worse, big tube amps with MV can sound pretty sterile with the master turned down to that point where the knobs almost do nothing (living room volume).

Consider also that unless the only recorded music you listen to is pre 80's vinyl then it will be coming to you via an analogue to digital to analogue conversion of some kind. All last century digitally manipulated music will have been at a sampling rate less than that we enjoy today. Any portable mixing desk that offers reverb or other signal processing is likely to do so via analogue to digital conversion.

I agree that previously, and still with a lot of entry level digital amps, they offered and annoying array of choices purporting to offer all things to all people. You were then in danger of spending hours poncing about with a million parameters and menus chasing something which, in reality may not be there. It would seem BOSS and Yamaha (as an example) have moved away from this. You get an interface that looks pretty much like a conventional amp with knobs to twiddle that do the stuff you would expect from a conventional amp. No menus, screens or any thing else. You can do more if you plug in a PC or tablet, but you don't need to to just plug in and enjoy playing.

I have a have a Yamaha THR5. Apparently they have mapped the signal path through the valve amps they represent to achieve the same aural output. Whatever, it seems to work. I went for a THR5 eventually as on pretty much every YouTube channel I follow the guy has admitted to having one - many of these have literally a shop full of gear to choose from. I have been really pleased with it. Apparently the new baby Katana might have knocked it from its perch as best small living room amp but I'm sufficiently happy not to want to change.

As noted above I have 4 all valve 5 watt amps but, to my 50+ year old ears I can neither hear nor feel a difference between these and the little Yamaha. I haven't done A/B testing at every volume so this is just a subjective thing about how I feel when I pug in.

So with Christmas coming, all you digital doubters, ask Santa to put a £99 Katana Mini in your Christmas sack, I think you will be pleasantly surprised...I have no affiliation to Yamaha or BOSS just pleased to suggest a good thing which I think will bring joy to my forum buddies.

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Post subject: Re: Are valve amps in the decline...even with Strat players?
Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:12 am
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I think it's just a matter of what stage one's at in one's playing career, isn't it, John? When I was young, lugging 4 x 12's around was all part of the fun!

Gradually, the attraction wore off and the amps got physically smaller, culminating in my use - for many years - of a Pod Live XT floor unit straight into the PA. A bit of a pain getting good sounds, but indeed it can be done, and it was good enough to satisfy both me and an audience. And you could carry it with one finger!

I still have the Pod as a backup, for recording, or as an FX board as required, but a few years ago I decided to go back to a valve/tube amp, currently the Mesa Rectoverb 25 combo. Like you, I don't play out much now - in fact, since I got a health problem I haven't gigged and may not do so again - but I still love that amp! And for a year or so I've used no FX, just a Strat straight into the amp. Two sounds, crunch and dirt, clean 'em up from the guitar volume. And at this stage in my playing 'career', that's what I'm enjoying. Fortunately I can make a fair row in my place without disturbing anyone, so I can get some pleasure from valves!

But give it another 5-10 years (got to be optimistic!), when I'm fed up again with the maintenance angle, the inconsistent valves, the occasional strange noises etc etc, and I might be extolling the virtues of something digital again! Meanwhile the 18-year-olds will still be lugging 4 x 12's...!

Cheers - Peter.


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Post subject: Re: Are valve amps in the decline...even with Strat players?
Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:29 am
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I saw a 5 pc. band last night called Grave New World and they used at least two of three solid state amps.
The bass amp was an SWR WorkingPro 210 which is a great amp.
I will never diss anybody for using solid state on the bass.
Great punch, great snap, great articulation, great note definition.

One guitar amp was a Line 6 AmpliFi (the biggest one in that lineup) and the other was smaller and facing away from me and could have been a Spider series but I couldn't get a close enough look to be sure as it was tucked away in a corner and was partially obscured by the SWR.
I only suspect it was a Spider or other SS modeller because of the sound.

The crowd enjoyed the band and frequently commented to each other how nice it was the band wasn't very loud but I thought they didn't sound very good.
The drums and bass were tight, clear and articulate but both guitars were distant and vague sounding.
Very little definition, almost no punch and virtually no presence at all.
It reminded me of my own experience with Line 6 amps.
I got very close to the sounds I wanted but they always sounded like they were coming from a stereo system rather than a guitar amp.
After all these years, I still cant put my finger on the exact science or phenomenon that makes it obvious they are fakes (emulations).
I don't have that with my Helix but I believe it's largely because I play it through a warm tube amp.

Anyways, decent band chops wise.
The singer was sober and on key and occasionally played a guitar.
They could have been so much better though.
As I sat there I thought of this discussion.

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Post subject: Re: Are valve amps in the decline...even with Strat players?
Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:22 pm
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To me, Tube amps & Strats are where it's at.

Here's my Tube amp and Strat collection.

Tube Amps:


'65 Fender Blonde Twin Reverb (Conversion)
'66 Fender Pro Reverb
'66 Fender Princeton Reverb
'73 Fender SF Deluxe Reverb
'73 Fender Vibro Champ
'75 Fender Champ
'76 Fender Vibrolux Reverb
'83 Boogie MKIIC 60/100,EQ,Reverb Head
'84 Boogie MKIIC+ 60 watt combo
'84 Boogie MKIIC+ Simul-Class loaded
Bubinga/Wicker combo
'05 Vox AC30CC2
'08 Brown Note D'Lite 44 "ODE" Head
'10 Hermida 1x12 openback G12H-30 loaded
'14 Mesa Boogie Roadster Dual Rectifier 2x12 Combo

My Fender Strat Collection:

'75 Fender Mocha Strat
'79 Fender Antigua Strat
'87 Fender Strat Tobacco Sunburst
'89 Fender Old CAR Strat
'90 Fender Strat Plus Pewter
'90 Fender Strat Plus Black (E9)
'90 Fender Strat Plus Blackburst (N9)
'90 Fender 50's RI Strat "Blackie"
'07 Fender '57 AVRI Surf Green Strat
'07 Fender FSR "Reverse Headstock Strat
'09 Fender LTD. ED. Am. Std. Daphne Blue Strat
'10 Fender Olympic White Am. Standard
'12 Fender Candy Cola Am. Standard


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