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Post subject: New Strat - first problem emerges!
Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:33 am
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Aspiring Musician
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ImageImageHi all.
Anyone got any ideas with this one, please? As you can see, the E string (and to some extent the B) has crept off the saddle proper.

I move the E back but I'm a heavy-handed player who bends a lot, and after a couple of minutes I can hear the 'ping' as the string drops back into the position shown in the photos. It wouldn't affect a player with a lighter touch but it's no good for me. Annoying, as my Special - with it's cheaper version of the bent steel saddles - has no similar problem.

It's pretty obvious that the saddles aren't square to the baseplate back - and that's where the problem lies - but I can't see how to adjust this out. Tilting the E saddle (using the height screws) would probably cure the slippage, but as they should be parallel to the baseplate, I wouldn't consider that to be a fix.

I do have a spare '2-post, block saddle' unit off an older AmStd, which would presumably fit and cure the problem (and is easily reversed). Aesthetically it wouldn't bother me, as bent saddles on a 2-post unit looks a little odd to me - I prefer the 6-screw mounting - but I wanted to keep this Strat standard, so changing the unit out would be a pity!

Any help much appreciated! Cheers - Peter.


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Post subject: Re: New Strat - first problem emerges!
Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:26 am
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I think it is just a case of creep. If you look at the bass E, that is a bit over to one side and then it is a knock on from there.

If you start with the base E and move them all across one at a time it should be "jobs a good'n" :-)

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Post subject: Re: New Strat - first problem emerges!
Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:21 am
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Rock Star
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First thing to check is the neck - do the strings still line up good with the neck edges, are the neck joint screws properly tightened?

Then: what's your string gauge, how high are the saddles? These both to check if you have sufficient downforce over the saddles. Thicker gauge; shimming to get saddles higher; grooving the saddles may help.

Oh yeah: if this doesn't cause any problems beyond that "my saddles are not absolutely 100% straight" ticking constantly in your head, you could just let it be. :wink:


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Post subject: Re: New Strat - first problem emerges!
Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:00 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Quote:
If you start with the base E and move them all across one at a time it should be "jobs a good'n"
Done that, John - they just move back again! I need to stop them moving over to the treble side in the first place.

Quote:
First thing to check is the neck - do the strings still line up good with the neck edges, are the neck joint screws properly tightened?
Yes and yes, JM, whether the E's in the 'right' place or as per the photo.

Quote:
Then: what's your string gauge, how high are the saddles?
9-42, tuned to E flat. Saddle height? Not sure I can answer that unless I measure them! Basically, they're where they should be for the correct action on this particular guitar.

Quote:
These both to check if you have sufficient downforce over the saddles. Thicker gauge; shimming to get saddles higher; grooving the saddles may help.
If my Special's set up the same and doesn't have the problem, downforce should be OK, I'd have thought. Yes, shimming the neck so I can get the saddles higher might help, grooving more so, but is filing a groove a common fix? I've never read of anyone doing it? Yes, I could do it, but surely that's the sort of thing specialist trem makers spend ages over?! Perhaps I should buy another saddle and cut a groove in that - sort of a practice run.

Quote:
if this doesn't cause any problems beyond that "my saddles are not absolutely 100% straight"
No, it wouldn't bother me unduly, but the top E's aren't going to last long running over the screw hole. And that's a problem!

Thanks for the suggestions, though. Perhaps someone will come up who's had exactly this problem...

Cheers - Peter.


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Post subject: Re: New Strat - first problem emerges!
Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:38 pm
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Rock Star
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Did you buy it used?
There are more than one width of saddles.
Could they have been replaced?
The low strings will exhert more tension than the high strings when tuned to standard pitch so the high E will be the one most likely to move aside when space is short.

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Post subject: Re: New Strat - first problem emerges!
Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:05 pm
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Depending on the age of the guitar, if bought used it might have originally came with powdered saddles and they may just be a bit wider and higher. Just a thought.

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Post subject: Re: New Strat - first problem emerges!
Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:08 pm
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+1. Could it have had the cast saddles, they're not as wide as the bent ones.


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Post subject: Re: New Strat - first problem emerges!
Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:13 am
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It wouldn't have had MiA cast saddles as the screws on the MIA cast saddles are off centre so the trem base plate is different with different hole locations to the rear.

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Post subject: Re: New Strat - first problem emerges!
Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:51 am
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Rock Star
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Peter S wrote:
Saddle height? Not sure I can answer that unless I measure them! Basically, they're where they should be for the correct action on this particular guitar.
I meant saddle height in relation to the trem plate, which affects the break angle of the string over the saddle top, which affets the downforce I mentioned. Neck angle related thang.

Peter S wrote:
is filing a groove a common fix?
Common, no. But useful - in some situations.
As a side remark, grooved saddles aren't unknown in Fenders, not even in Strats: Deluxe saddles, many of the upgrade/aftermarket parts - and of course the pot metal cast saddles in some Squiers, after surprisingly few playing hours. :wink:

On the 'saddles too wide' diagnosis: the fix (shaving just a red aunt hair width off the saddle sides) would be easy. Might even be worth doing anyways.


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Post subject: Re: New Strat - first problem emerges!
Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:09 am
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Perhaps try a new set of saddle screws, you will have to get two lengths, as the may have a better point to get more of a bite into the plate.

Or, trim off on Allen Key (hex wrench) straight and when the intonation is set tap the end of the inserted Allen key with a hammer to put a divot in the base plate.

It does all seem a lot of faffing about though.

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Post subject: Re: New Strat - first problem emerges!
Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:49 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Thanks chaps. Yes, I bought it used (at that price it had to be!), but there is a small back story: Briefly, last year Fender GB installed a new neck because of a faulty original. So the guitar is a 2014, now with a 2016 neck / serial number. I'm happy with that as it means zero fret wear!

The very genuine chap I bought it from (who bought it new in 2015 but prefers his Teles) supplied all paperwork from Fender GB, which details the neck / serial number change and setup (albeit for 10's at standard tuning), so I can't see that anything will have been changed from standard. From what he said, Fender had more use out of this Strat than he did!

I think I'm going to mess around with the saddles a bit. Grooving that top E very slightly (to mimic what JM says happens naturally) sounds reasonable. Wouldn't need a lot, would it? Just enough to start it off.

Or perhaps a variation on John's idea of indenting the baseplate and using a more pointed saddle screw on the 'treblest' end. I don't change my string gauges or tuning, so centre punching the baseplate in the appropriate position might be the way to go. Just the slightest of 'holes' would no doubt do it, and wouldn't show either.

Anyway, as usual, some useful ideas - thanks a lot!

Cheers - Peter.


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Post subject: Re: New Strat - first problem emerges!
Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:16 am
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Peter S wrote:
setup (albeit for 10's at standard tuning)

And now you're running that guitar with a .009" set, which drops the total string tension roughly 20%, and you've tuned to E♭, which again drops the total string tension (someone who knows might fill in the percentage... Edit: used an online calculator; E-standard to E♭ is about 10 percent less tension.).

With the .010" string set tension, the current neck angle was enough to keep strings from wandering, with the current set & tuning I would shim the neck a bit - but I was raised in the dinosaur age when shimming was much more common than in 2010s... :wink:

BTW, (re: that Squier comment of mine), on some Squiers the trem plate has grooves for E-string saddle height adjustment screws to help keep the saddles in line.
Image


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Post subject: Re: New Strat - first problem emerges!
Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:31 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Location: Cambridge UK
Quote:
And now you're running that guitar with a .009" set, which drops the total string tension roughly 20%, and you've tuned to E♭, which again drops the total string tension
Yes, I appreciate that. Doesn't help, does it?

Pity the expensive Strats don't have a version of that presumably-cheapo Squier baseplate. Bit like colours - the cheap Strats have better ones, it always seems to me!

I shall get there with this, though. And if I don't (given 6 months or so), well, it's not as if I'm going to lose any money on the guitar, is it...?!

Cheers - Peter.

PS: Already did a similar reply to this, which seems to have disappeared. Just in case it turns up again!


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