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Post subject: Spring placement on Ritchie Blackmore's 1972 Ash Strat
Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:55 am
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I just seen this photo of Ritchie with his natural finish Ash Stratocaster with the tremolo cover removed. To what benefits would there be in arranging the tremolo springs 1 to the left and 3 to the right?


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Post subject: Re: Spring placement on Ritchie Blackmore's 1972 Ash Strat
Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:21 pm
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It leaves space for a stash. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Spring placement on Ritchie Blackmore's 1972 Ash Strat
Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:26 pm
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Maybe he's indicating to his luthier where he wants a Hipshot Trem-Setter installed......?

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Post subject: Re: Spring placement on Ritchie Blackmore's 1972 Ash Strat
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:23 am
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So many myths and trends relate to spring configuration.

Some like them parallel, some like a triangle, some like a bit of angle on the claw etc etc.

There is a train of thought that there is more tension on the bass string side, so in this instance his Blackmoreness has opted for and extra spring on the bass side...Perhaps.

I'm not sure (and as a non wammyist don't care enough to experiment) But we are dealing with a fixed pivot plane within a system. All the imposed forces applied by the strings collectively and the springs collectively act along that plane. I'm not sure an uneven force has any real impact one way or another as the pivot plane will combine them.

I do appreciate that a wammy is a very tactile thing, which employs magic and, if such is your affliction, there will be a set up which gives you a certain feel that you crave.

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Post subject: Re: Spring placement on Ritchie Blackmore's 1972 Ash Strat
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:36 am
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Looking at it again, the claw is so far back, I am assuming the bridge is decked.

So why then 4 springs, not 3 or 5? Perhaps his Druidic tendencies have established a greater symbiosis with lay lines or something.

Considering he screwed a button to the head of one of his Strats for no other reason than to give people something the query he may well have gone 4 springs for the same reason. It worked if that was the case.

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Post subject: Re: Spring placement on Ritchie Blackmore's 1972 Ash Strat
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:29 am
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John Sims wrote:
Looking at it again, the claw is so far back, I am assuming the bridge is decked.

With Ritchie Blackmore, I would not assume that. He had custom made steel whammy bars because he always broke them. So the claw position as well as more springs than usual is likely intentional to fit his aggressive whammy bar use.


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Post subject: Re: Spring placement on Ritchie Blackmore's 1972 Ash Strat
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:36 am
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It's entirely possible he just liked the tension of 4 springs.
He may have felt 3 was not enough and 5 was too much.
If so, it makes sense to arrange them that way since the low E string exerts more tension on the bridge than the high E.
String and spring tensions are more closely balanced that way.

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Post subject: Re: Spring placement on Ritchie Blackmore's 1972 Ash Strat
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:43 am
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Wouldn't be nice if there was a phycisist(/phycisian) on the forum, skillful enough to solve the question on possibly different pull on low/high strings side on the trem...
That question pops up every once in a while, like with Mr. Verheyen's trem setup instructions - and noting re that: the trem claw on this ^ pic is straight.
My logic/gut feel/experiments with trem setups makes me lean towards the pivot point combining forces theory.
Factory Strats, AFAIK, roll out with straight, symmetric trem springs - except on some signature models which imitate how the player wants them.

That kind of trem springs arrangement may have significance to Mr. Blackmore, for us mortals I'd say it doesn't matter.
Or maybe Mr. Lords borrowed a spring, experimenting on new effects for his Leslie... :wink:


Last edited by jmattis on Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Spring placement on Ritchie Blackmore's 1972 Ash Strat
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:41 pm
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John Sims wrote:
Perhaps his Druidic tendencies have established a greater symbiosis with lay lines or something.


:mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: Spring placement on Ritchie Blackmore's 1972 Ash Strat
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:09 pm
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jmattis wrote:
Wouldn't be nice if there was a phycisist(/phycisian) on the forum, skillful enough to solve the question on possibly different pull on low/high strings side on the trem...
That question pops up every once in a while, like with Mr. Verhoeven's trem setup instructions - and noting re that: the trem claw on this ^ pic is straight.
My logic/gut feel/experiments with trem setups makes me lean towards the pivot point combining forces theory.
Factory Strats, AFAIK, roll out with straight, symmetric trem springs - except on some signature models which imitate how the player wants them.

That kind of trem springs arrangement may have significance to Mr. Blackmore, for us mortals I'd say it doesn't matter.
Or maybe Mr. Lords borrowed a spring, experimenting on new effects for his Leslie... :wink:


Aerospace engineer here. :mrgreen:

It's a typical problem in statics: a moment balance. For a two-point bridge, the vast majority of the string tension and spring tension lies between the pivot points, even if the springs are as far to the side as they can go, so it is impossible for the strings and springs to generate a moment in the plane of the guitar top that could cause the bridge to pull away and only contact one pivot point. A six-point bridge could potentially wobble if the six pivot points were not in a line, but it would be a pretty gross mis-rigging of the bridge. So I think you can put the springs in a pretty asymmetric arrangement with no effect on the guitar.


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Post subject: Re: Spring placement on Ritchie Blackmore's 1972 Ash Strat
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:01 pm
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Thanks for that.
BTW, you sorta give new meaning to "guitar setups ain't no rocket science"...


PS: Edited that lapsus linguae of mine, Verhoeven in movies, Verheyen in guitars.


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Post subject: Re: Spring placement on Ritchie Blackmore's 1972 Ash Strat
Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:00 am
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cthulhu wrote:
For a two-point bridge, the vast majority of the string tension and spring tension lies between the pivot points
Strictly speaking, that's not entirely accurate.
It's not the vast majority, it's 100%.
I've never seen a two point where the centerline of the strings is outside the centerline of the pins.
If anyone has, I'd be interested in hearing about it and seeing pics.
That would add a very cool twist to the subject.

cthulhu wrote:
so it is impossible for the strings and springs to generate a moment in the plane of the guitar top that could cause the bridge to pull away and only contact one pivot point
Nobody has ever said the plate pulls away from the pins, only that there is more pressure on one pin than the other.

I can't explain why the angled claw works.
Maybe it's a friction differential on the contact points.
Maybe it's a torsional thing on the plate due to leverage induced by the length of the block.
I don't know.
I only know that it does work.
When I adjust a claw that way it improves tuning stability.
It's not a placebo.
It's not all my head.
It makes an improvement.
I suspect it may make more of an improvement on a six screw bridge plate, there being no way of determining if the screws are lined up perfectly to within a micron or two.
Or the six holes in the plate for that matter.
I do know that the low E string exerts more tension than the high E string.
That cannot be denied and it makes sense that it must affect the stresses applied to the bridge assembly.

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Post subject: Re: Spring placement on Ritchie Blackmore's 1972 Ash Strat
Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:18 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Maybe it's a torsional thing on the plate due to leverage induced by the length of the block.

That sounds plausible. The plate, while stiff, is not made out of diamond. It's not unthinkable that the side with the least tension will move a tiny fraction more or earlier than the other side.


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Post subject: Re: Spring placement on Ritchie Blackmore's 1972 Ash Strat
Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:34 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I can't explain why the angled claw works.

And I was not implying it doesn't work. I'm not even saying it's worse than the "industry standard" of straight, symmetric trem springs and a straight claw. I was merely asking a question about the physics behind the claim of different pull on low/high string side.

But you have to acknowledge that the 'straight system' is used by a vast majority of r-e-a-l-l-y good players, guitar techs, luthiers and guitar manufacturers. That's my fifty million flies argument. :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Spring placement on Ritchie Blackmore's 1972 Ash Strat
Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:19 am
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Not to worry, jmattis.
I wasn't saying you did.


I've heard lots of reasons why it shouldn't work.
I have no problem with people suggesting it shouldn't work and why.
I'm here to learn just like everybody else.
Maybe sometimes to teach.
I just saw a couple things in cthulhu's comments that I felt were a bit off.
If anything, I added weight to his(her?) comment when you think about it.

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