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Post subject: Re: What do you think about this Fender Japan Strat?
Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:47 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
LawFlow wrote:
My only other close-up with a Fender Strat is my long forgotten 1966. Even though early CBS era, it was top notch. Perhaps it's only my memory, but it seems that everything else back then was such crap.


This seems to be a non sequitur. Precisely *what* was crap?

I too had a '66 Strat (second owner, bought in 1968) and it was a great guitar -- gray bobbin pickups with wax potting, all steel bridge and hardware, Kluson Deluxe tuners, nitro finish. Nothing "crap" about it. And back in 1966 Fender was building the finest amps in the industry, so much so that those original blackfaces remain the holy grail among tone junkies some fifty years after the fact.

Arjay
The "crap" I was exposed to back in 1965 were the Silvertones and Kays which was about all I knew. My guitar teacher offered to sell me his Gibson SG as he was getting an ES-335. I didn't like his SG compared to the Strat (pre-1965) I had been practicing with. I bought the 1966 CBS Strat and could not see any difference from my borrowed practice one. The Gibson was OK, just not as good. To each his own. Hendrix had not yet come on the scene, so I had no other influence other than I liked all things Fender (including the 1966 Super Reverb I got over the Vox). That's just from my own 14 yr old experience and WHAT did I know? BTW - My stodgy Dad fronted this and I paid him back from gig earnings over the next 1 & 1/2 years.


Last edited by LawFlow on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: What do you think about this Fender Japan Strat?
Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:46 am
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Quote:
The crap I was exposed to back in 1965 were the Silvertones and Kays


Ha ha, know what you mean, Larry, but you should've been in England! Silvertones & Kays would've been luxury compared to what was available over here! However, it was a matter of price - Strats were only available to pros and rich people, and when I started in the late-50's, no-one had a pot to pee in. I imagine a Strat in the US was a similar step up in price, so you'd expect decent quality. Comparing our Watkins Rapiers, Futuramas, Arbiters, Hofners etc to any Strat would be comparing apples with pears!

I do recall getting to play a friend of my Dad's cherry red 335 back then (he watched me like a hawk!) and that was like a Rolls-Royce over a Trabant. As I say - a matter of price.

What is great now, though, is the quality of starter guitars, don't you think? I just wish I'd had a modern Chinese Strat back then!

Cheers - Peter.


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Post subject: Re: What do you think about this Fender Japan Strat?
Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:07 am
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Peter S wrote:
Quote:
The crap I was exposed to back in 1965 were the Silvertones and Kays


Ha ha, know what you mean, Larry, but you should've been in England! Silvertones & Kays would've been luxury compared to what was available over here! However, it was a matter of price - Strats were only available to pros and rich people, and when I started in the late-50's, no-one had a pot to pee in. I imagine a Strat in the US was a similar step up in price, so you'd expect decent quality. Comparing our Watkins Rapiers, Futuramas, Arbiters, Hofners etc to any Strat would be comparing apples with pears!

I do recall getting to play a friend of my Dad's cherry red 335 back then (he watched me like a hawk!) and that was like a Rolls-Royce over a Trabant. As I say - a matter of price.

What is great now, though, is the quality of starter guitars, don't you think? I just wish I'd had a modern Chinese Strat back then!

Cheers - Peter.
Ha Ha! From my history lessons, the Beatles (George & John) didn't get their Strats until the time of "Nowhere Man". Vox amps were well known, but I did not like them at all compared to the Fender amps. Marshall was not known then (by me). Yes, the ES-335 was a "Holy Grail" guitar. It was a great guitar and shortly after my teacher got his, we had parted. The Gibson was more expensive and my Strat was around $350 & Super Reverb $380. That was a lot of money back then. We earned $200-$300 per gig and played at least once or twice a week which was good money.


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Post subject: Re: What do you think about this Fender Japan Strat?
Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:49 am
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LawFlow wrote:
The "crap" I was exposed to back in 1965 were the Silvertones and Kays which was about all I knew.


No better than the tulip-bodied Teisco Del Ray I started out with.

:lol:

My guitar teacher owned a '65 Strat and a Ric 360/12, both of which became my "dream guitars". The kid around the corner from me whom I played in a garage band with put his non-reverb Fender Deluxe Amp up for sale after daddy bought him a new Vox Viscount for Christmas and that became my first Fender Amp. I remember hauling it home in my little brother's Radio Flyer wagon. Ninety bucks, well spent. The Teisco was put out to pasture shortly thereafter when I bought a used Gibson Melody maker. It was another two years before I would find and purchase that '66 Strat for the princely sum of one hundred yankee dollars. It and the Deluxe Amp were a great combo.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: What do you think about this Fender Japan Strat?
Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:47 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
LawFlow wrote:
The "crap" I was exposed to back in 1965 were the Silvertones and Kays which was about all I knew.


No better than the tulip-bodied Teisco Del Ray I started out with.

:lol:

My guitar teacher owned a '65 Strat and a Ric 360/12, both of which became my "dream guitars". The kid around the corner from me whom I played in a garage band with put his non-reverb Fender Deluxe Amp up for sale after daddy bought him a new Vox Viscount for Christmas and that became my first Fender Amp. I remember hauling it home in my little brother's Radio Flyer wagon. Ninety bucks, well spent. The Teisco was put out to pasture shortly thereafter when I bought a used Gibson Melody maker. It was another two years before I would find and purchase that '66 Strat for the princely sum of one hundred yankee dollars. It and the Deluxe Amp were a great combo.

Arjay
OK - so we're off topic. Until someone chimes in with something new, this is fun. Back in the day - - We also had a little Champ Amp, my Super Reverb, Fender Bassman, Fender Bandmaster or (Showman? not sure), Twin Reverb on loan, and another Fender amp. Not sure, but it was either a Pro Reverb or Deluxe Reverb. In addition was my Strat, either another Strat or Mustang on loan, Mosrite Bass, Premiere/Olympic drums etc and several Shure Mics. Let's not forget strobe and neon lights.

Arjay, you mentioned the Ric 360/12. I bought one of those in 1995 thinking it would compliment my Taylor acoustic 12 string. The Ric was impossible to play. The neck was incredibly narrow. I thought I could master it and even had some work done by world renowned luthier/repair guy, Don E. Teeter, OKC with no luck. Sounded great through my Fender Princeton Chorus, but couldn't fret it cleanly. I traded it for some recording equipment.

So here I am. Trying to restart things with a new USA Strat and Twin Reverb. The years take something away for sure. BTW, I have a guitar/amp history book and looked up your Teisco Del Ray. Quite a looker. They said the body was "space aged" and had lots of bells and whistles. The write up says you'll upstage anyone with a Strat, Gretsch or Les Paul. Fine company indeed. There's a lot to be said even for that!


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Post subject: Re: What do you think about this Fender Japan Strat?
Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:09 pm
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:cry:
LawFlow wrote:
Arjay, you mentioned the Ric 360/12. I bought one of those in 1995 thinking it would compliment my Taylor acoustic 12 string. The Ric was impossible to play. The neck was incredibly narrow.


That's what happened to me.

When I got to that point in life where I could afford any damn thing I wanted, I checked into a Ric 12 and discovered my aging fingers could no longer manipulate such a slender piece of lumber.

:cry:

The hell of it was, I needed a 12-string for several covers on our play list. So I settled for the next best thing......a MIJ Strat XII. It may not have the visual vibe of the Ric but after a few careful mods it sounds pretty close to a toaster-equipped 360. And it's more comfortable to hold and play.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: What do you think about this Fender Japan Strat?
Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:13 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
:cry:
LawFlow wrote:
Arjay, you mentioned the Ric 360/12. I bought one of those in 1995 thinking it would compliment my Taylor acoustic 12 string. The Ric was impossible to play. The neck was incredibly narrow.


That's what happened to me.

When I got to that point in life where I could afford any damn thing I wanted, I checked into a Ric 12 and discovered my aging fingers could no longer manipulate such a slender piece of lumber.

:cry:

The hell of it was, I needed a 12-string for several covers on our play list. So I settled for the next best thing......a MIJ Strat XII. It may not have the visual vibe of the Ric but after a few careful mods it sounds pretty close to a toaster-equipped 360. And it's more comfortable to hold and play.

Arjay
Makes you appreciate Roger McGuinn and George Harrison a little more. Tom Petty had Ric make one to his specs with a wider neck. Everybody complains about the Ric necks, even their 6 strings. You'd think they might want to get it right, unless it's a cork sniffer appeal thing. It's too bad Fender's 12 didn't take off.


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Post subject: Re: What do you think about this Fender Japan Strat?
Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:31 pm
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Fender's original Fender XII did leave one indelible mark on musical history -- it's the guitar that Jimmy Page used in the studio to lay down the rhythm track for "Stairway To Heaven".

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: What do you think about this Fender Japan Strat?
Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:54 am
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Well, this is my own take on "crap"...

Like many here, yea...I've been around for a while too. Certainly some of those old Silvertones, Harmony's and Kay's left something to be desired...at least when compared with Gibson and Fender back in the day. That said, the same can be said of the 70's and 80's too...in my teen years, I grew up with brands like Memphis, Lotus, Cort, etc.. I still have my old Rhthymline Tele that got relinquished to being a practice piece for doing refinishing...ya want to talk about a truly horrifying piece of crap, LOL!

That said...it should also be obvious that a great deal of this is very much a matter of perspective as well. For example, I have an '08 Squier Standard...yea, I've upgraded the trem block and pickups, but ya know what? Compared to those old Memphis', Lotus', Cort's, Silvertones, etc., that lowly little Squier is a DAMN FINE instrument....even with the cheap Ping tuners! LOL! No, it's not my personal favorite amongst the harem...I kind of bought her on a whim because I just LOVED the finish (one of the few times I've bought a guitar based on aesthetics...she really is a lovely looking axe!), but yes, I've used her on stage a few times...and proudly so. Is she "as good" as a more expensive instrument? No...not really. BUT...she does a great job for some Saturday night gig at a local club. If I didn't own the other instruments that I do, I'd really have no problem with her being my main guitar (although I'd probably swap the neck out for something with a maple fretboard...still don't like rosewood on Strats).

Here's the thing...for myself at least, above and beyond everything else, I'm a guitar player. Despite the number of instruments I own, I don't consider myself a collector or anything and the simple fact of the matter is that no, I don't need "top of the line" in order to do what I do. Expensive gear will NEVER make you a better player...and for some folks, it's simply a way to show off how much money they have to throw around. Like many here, no...I'm not some kid...I'm over 50, I've been playing for over 3 decades, I have a nice house "in the 'burbs", 2 cars in the driveway, no kids living at home (well...no human kids anyways...3 dogs and 2 cats) and while the wife is still resisting me on the 50" flat screen (LOL), the fact is that -IF- I really needed a $4000 instrument, I'd have one already. I don't. For what I do both on stage and in the studio, my humble (but modified) Latina's do an EXCELLENT job and any one of my even humbler Squiers have worked well when the need calls.

I look at it like this - personally I LOVE those Rick's with the narrow necks...for an otherwise big guy (I'm 6'2", around 230 lbs at the moment), I actually have rather small hands, so those really narrow necks really are quite lovely to me. That said, while I'm sure I would get some use out of one, I also don't see one ever replacing my Mexican Strats either...it's not my sound and it's not what I'm comfortable playing, so what's the point of having one? To show other people I can afford it? Why should I give a rat's butt? Same goes for vintage instruments...I've played many guitars from the 50's and 60's over the years and I really just don't like most of them...most of the necks on those things feel like boat oars to me, so what's the point in having one, let alone forking out that kind of money for one? So I can lock it in a hermetically sealed case with an alarm on it? To me that's just horrendously wasteful. While I too can get pretty much anything I want today, I've also stood in those not-so-proverbial food lines...back when my wife went thru her run with cancer (some folks here may remember that), we were down to NOTHING...almost lost our house. So no, I will NOT be wasteful like that...especially not for irrational concepts like ego and especially not any anachronistic sense of nationalistic pride.

So, what is "crap"? It's a matter of perspective. For those who think they need or want or somehow think they deserve "the best", certainly something like an MIM or MIJ or CIC would be well beneath them...after all, why would ANYONE want that kind of junk, right? Doesn't make them better players of course...it's simply their own personal attitudes and preconceptions more than anything. For someone who's used to Mercedes and BMW, certainly a humble Chevy or Ford is beneath them too...but at the end of the day, the Chevy (or Ford) will still get you from point A to point B (and typically for A LOT less money). Likewise, for a guitar player it should be more about having something you can play...something that gets the job done. If that cheap $100 Strat you got off Craigslist gets you where you need to go, it can hardly be considered "crap".

If people worried less about where their guitars were made (or the collective parts) and MORE about their playing, we'd have a lot more decent musicians in the world.

Just another $.02 worth...don't spend it all in one place.


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Post subject: Re: What do you think about this Fender Japan Strat?
Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:19 pm
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lomitus wrote:
LawFlow wrote:
I have seen and played MIM guitars and am not impressed. If the goal is to buy those on the cheap and replace everything, then go for it. I did my last science project ages ago. If you like it, buy it. In doubt, forget it.



Funny...that's how I feel about MIA Strats...for the outrageous price, I've just NEVER been impressed. The "hand rolled" fretboards have never impressed me, nor does the bi-flex truss rod and I have yet to play a newer American Strat (late 80's and up) that actually sounds like a Strat...the pickups they use in most of those things are just awful to my own ears. Then of course there's those 2 point trem systems...I actually hate those damn things. Sloppy...they just feel too much like a Floyd Rose (which I also hate). I'll take a 6 point trem, MIM or MIJ, ANY day. In fact, even if they were priced exactly the same, I'd take an MIM over an MIA as a base instrument because that's what -I- like.

Of the 8 Strats in my arsenal at the moment, 5 are MIM's of various pedigree...the others are an MIJ, a humble CIC and my home built "International-caster" (partscaster). Of the MANY guitars I've owned over the years, including instruments made in Canada, Japan, Indonesia, Spain, China and even my New Jersey made Kramer, my MIM Strats are singularly my favorite instruments...my '96 MIM Standard has been my #1 since the day my wife bought her for me brand new in '96...and yes, she is rather heavily modified today .

No, admittedly modding your own guitar isn't for everyone. Just like with cars, some folks prefer to work on their own, others seem content to just put gas in them and drive them till they drop, then let others deal with the problem. That said my own belief is that "a guitar" should be as unique as the person playing it. For myself, why should I want some "off the rack" instrument that sounds and plays just like every other bubba out there? I've been playing for well over 3 decades now and I MUCH prefer to tailor my instruments to my own specific needs...my sound and my playing style. Of the 25 guitars I currently own, virtually every one of them has been modified to one extent or another (except my Ibanez Artcore...and that's coming as the feedback at high volumes is starting to drive me nuts! LOL!).

In terms of an MIM, yes, I will certainly change out those crappy zinc trem blocks...I prefer Callaham, but even the GHS steel blocks do a good job. $22 for a GFS block that I can slap on during a string change...takes about 20 minutes...as long as you're smart enough to know which end of a Philip's screwdriver to hang on to, it's hardly a "science project" at all. And yes, I will usually change out my pickups as well...but that's more of a Fender thing than an MIM thing....I really don't care for most of the newer/contemporary Strat pickups out there (or Tele pickups for that matter). For my own sound and my own style of playing, I MUCH prefer Duncan's or EMG's...it's a taste thing, but Fender pickups, MIM, MIJ, MIA or otherwise just don't usually do it for me. Again however, while soldering pickups IS a bit of a skill, A LOT of folks do it (including many MIA owners)...again hardly any kind of so-called science project. To suggest one has to "replace everything" however, is totally absurd...there's just WAY to many of us MIM players around who are in fact quite happy with our instruments to think that even has the slightest grain of truth to it. I can't speak to the brand new MIM's out there today...it's been a while since I picked up a brand new guitar...however in terms of hardware and quality, all of my 90's and early 00's MIM's have all had VERY decent hardware (except the noted trem blocks and pickups)...screws, jackplates, Schaller tuners...all the EXACT same stuff they used on the MIA's. To suggest that EVERYTHING needs to be replaced is incredibly naive at best.

Perhaps the singular difference is that personally, I just don't give a rat's butt where a guitar was made or what others may or may not think about it. When I am considering an instrument, either at a guitar shop or even something off Craigslist, I don't usually look at the "Made in So&So" label...or even what specific series a given guitar may actually be. I sit down and play the guitar...I plug the guitar into an amp that I am familiar with (or bring one of my own) and I pay attention to 1.) How the guitar feels in my hands and 2.) how the guitar sounds (and with a Strat, I -know- I can change that sound easily enough). For myself, even color just isn't THAT big a deal to me...I may first be attracted to a guitar because of aesthetic considerations, but the singular selling point to me is feel. If the guitar doesn't feel right in my own hands, then it just doesn't matter where it was made or how expensive it is, let alone what others may think of it. Unfortunately there's a lot of people out there who will just snear at an inexpensive instrument, particularly imports (and there's a lot of folks who don't even know the difference between the guitar and a setup), however the fact of the matter is that I've played some GREAT Chinese and Japanese made instruments and I've played some really lousy American made instruments....when I'm guitar shopping, I just close my eyes and feel the instrument for what it is - a guitar.

Either way, the simple truth is this - for the difference in cost between an MIM and an MIA, I can take the MIM and tweak it out to sound and play the way -I- want it...and still have PLENTY of bread left over afterward that can go towards pedals, new cables or all those string changes I do, or maybe even in a new amp fund or gee...even a night out on the town (or two) with the Mrs.. I'd still have to make those same adjustments to an MIA...so WHY spend the extra money for it? Sorry, but it's NOT about any sense of a "science project", it's about buying, tweaking or even building a guitar that is uniquely suited to the unique individual playing it.

Sorry, but yes - I will stick with modding my MIM's. That way I get the guitar -I- want and not the exact same guitar that Bob and Joe and Pork Chop and everyone else plays.
I apologize to you and anyone else who was offended by my comments. I thought we were just talking and sharing things. It's all good. Sorry. :(


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Post subject: Re: What do you think about this Fender Japan Strat?
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:43 am
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lomitus wrote:
Well, this is my own take on "crap"...

Like many here, yea...I've been around for a while too. Certainly some of those old Silvertones, Harmony's and Kay's left something to be desired...at least when compared with Gibson and Fender back in the day. That said, the same can be said of the 70's and 80's too...in my teen years, I grew up with brands like Memphis, Lotus, Cort, etc.. I still have my old Rhthymline Tele that got relinquished to being a practice piece for doing refinishing...ya want to talk about a truly horrifying piece of crap, LOL!

That said...it should also be obvious that a great deal of this is very much a matter of perspective as well. For example, I have an '08 Squier Standard...yea, I've upgraded the trem block and pickups, but ya know what? Compared to those old Memphis', Lotus', Cort's, Silvertones, etc., that lowly little Squier is a DAMN FINE instrument....even with the cheap Ping tuners! LOL! No, it's not my personal favorite amongst the harem...I kind of bought her on a whim because I just LOVED the finish (one of the few times I've bought a guitar based on aesthetics...she really is a lovely looking axe!), but yes, I've used her on stage a few times...and proudly so. Is she "as good" as a more expensive instrument? No...not really. BUT...she does a great job for some Saturday night gig at a local club. If I didn't own the other instruments that I do, I'd really have no problem with her being my main guitar (although I'd probably swap the neck out for something with a maple fretboard...still don't like rosewood on Strats).

Here's the thing...for myself at least, above and beyond everything else, I'm a guitar player. Despite the number of instruments I own, I don't consider myself a collector or anything and the simple fact of the matter is that no, I don't need "top of the line" in order to do what I do. Expensive gear will NEVER make you a better player...and for some folks, it's simply a way to show off how much money they have to throw around. Like many here, no...I'm not some kid...I'm over 50, I've been playing for over 3 decades, I have a nice house "in the 'burbs", 2 cars in the driveway, no kids living at home (well...no human kids anyways...3 dogs and 2 cats) and while the wife is still resisting me on the 50" flat screen (LOL), the fact is that -IF- I really needed a $4000 instrument, I'd have one already. I don't. For what I do both on stage and in the studio, my humble (but modified) Latina's do an EXCELLENT job and any one of my even humbler Squiers have worked well when the need calls.

I look at it like this - personally I LOVE those Rick's with the narrow necks...for an otherwise big guy (I'm 6'2", around 230 lbs at the moment), I actually have rather small hands, so those really narrow necks really are quite lovely to me. That said, while I'm sure I would get some use out of one, I also don't see one ever replacing my Mexican Strats either...it's not my sound and it's not what I'm comfortable playing, so what's the point of having one? To show other people I can afford it? Why should I give a rat's butt? Same goes for vintage instruments...I've played many guitars from the 50's and 60's over the years and I really just don't like most of them...most of the necks on those things feel like boat oars to me, so what's the point in having one, let alone forking out that kind of money for one? So I can lock it in a hermetically sealed case with an alarm on it? To me that's just horrendously wasteful. While I too can get pretty much anything I want today, I've also stood in those not-so-proverbial food lines...back when my wife went thru her run with cancer (some folks here may remember that), we were down to NOTHING...almost lost our house. So no, I will NOT be wasteful like that...especially not for irrational concepts like ego and especially not any anachronistic sense of nationalistic pride.

So, what is "crap"? It's a matter of perspective. For those who think they need or want or somehow think they deserve "the best", certainly something like an MIM or MIJ or CIC would be well beneath them...after all, why would ANYONE want that kind of junk, right? Doesn't make them better players of course...it's simply their own personal attitudes and preconceptions more than anything. For someone who's used to Mercedes and BMW, certainly a humble Chevy or Ford is beneath them too...but at the end of the day, the Chevy (or Ford) will still get you from point A to point B (and typically for A LOT less money). Likewise, for a guitar player it should be more about having something you can play...something that gets the job done. If that cheap $100 Strat you got off Craigslist gets you where you need to go, it can hardly be considered "crap".

If people worried less about where their guitars were made (or the collective parts) and MORE about their playing, we'd have a lot more decent musicians in the world.

Just another $.02 worth...don't spend it all in one place.


Agree much of what you say, lomitus. Playing a Squier never did Jeff Healey any harm!

Can't speak for the US, but I reckon if you played some of the stuff we had in England in the 60's, you'd call it crap as well! Huge necks, often warped and impossible to fix, action you couldn't adjust lower than about 1/4", lethal fret ends, tuners made of cheese and about as stable, humbuckers that weren't, the crudest of trems, and that's just off the top of my head! Added to the fact that we were all skint and therefore couldn't afford to fix/have fixed what could be fixed, these guitars were a serious struggle! All you could say is that they certainly toughened your fingers up!

Any Squier from the last 10-15 years would've been heaven back then, and - as you say - forgetting snob value, they do the job just fine. For recording, I have a Squier Bronco bass, cheap as chips, and the neck is very nice indeed. I've upgraded the pots and output jack, and put flatwounds on it, but otherwise it's standard.

Like you, I'm now in a position where I can buy pretty much what I want, but if it all went wrong I'd be very happy with a Squier, cheap clean amp, and a Rat! In fact, wringing a great solo out of cheap gear is rather satisfying - feels like going back to your roots...

Cheers - Peter.


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Post subject: Re: What do you think about this Fender Japan Strat?
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:47 am
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It seems all guitar fora are full of cork sniffers and crap carpers..... ha ha ha...

Crap is relative until it gets in the way of playing. Fortunately these days, a Squier is a fantastic bargain for the money. I recently bought my step son a Squier, and I was surprised at how good that guitar is for the price. Now, I don't care for the hardware and such, but the kids no gigging musician, no studio hound. He's just a kid with a guitar, and the Squier is a wonderful 1st guitar.

As for the Japanese Strat--well, Japan's production is like anyone else's: You're going to have great guitars, and you're going to have clunkers. I've had two Japanese Fenders. One was excellent; on the other, a 68 reissue, several tones came out when you played one note. Would have been nice had it been octaves or even within the key! Noooooo, dissonant and unruly. No setup could fix it.


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Post subject: Re: What do you think about this Fender Japan Strat?
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:29 am
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Location: Oklahoma
Peter S wrote:
lomitus wrote:
Well, this is my own take on "crap"...

Like many here, yea...I've been around for a while too. Certainly some of those old Silvertones, Harmony's and Kay's left something to be desired...at least when compared with Gibson and Fender back in the day. That said, the same can be said of the 70's and 80's too...in my teen years, I grew up with brands like Memphis, Lotus, Cort, etc.. I still have my old Rhthymline Tele that got relinquished to being a practice piece for doing refinishing...ya want to talk about a truly horrifying piece of crap, LOL!

That said...it should also be obvious that a great deal of this is very much a matter of perspective as well. For example, I have an '08 Squier Standard...yea, I've upgraded the trem block and pickups, but ya know what? Compared to those old Memphis', Lotus', Cort's, Silvertones, etc., that lowly little Squier is a DAMN FINE instrument....even with the cheap Ping tuners! LOL! No, it's not my personal favorite amongst the harem...I kind of bought her on a whim because I just LOVED the finish (one of the few times I've bought a guitar based on aesthetics...she really is a lovely looking axe!), but yes, I've used her on stage a few times...and proudly so. Is she "as good" as a more expensive instrument? No...not really. BUT...she does a great job for some Saturday night gig at a local club. If I didn't own the other instruments that I do, I'd really have no problem with her being my main guitar (although I'd probably swap the neck out for something with a maple fretboard...still don't like rosewood on Strats).

Here's the thing...for myself at least, above and beyond everything else, I'm a guitar player. Despite the number of instruments I own, I don't consider myself a collector or anything and the simple fact of the matter is that no, I don't need "top of the line" in order to do what I do. Expensive gear will NEVER make you a better player...and for some folks, it's simply a way to show off how much money they have to throw around. Like many here, no...I'm not some kid...I'm over 50, I've been playing for over 3 decades, I have a nice house "in the 'burbs", 2 cars in the driveway, no kids living at home (well...no human kids anyways...3 dogs and 2 cats) and while the wife is still resisting me on the 50" flat screen (LOL), the fact is that -IF- I really needed a $4000 instrument, I'd have one already. I don't. For what I do both on stage and in the studio, my humble (but modified) Latina's do an EXCELLENT job and any one of my even humbler Squiers have worked well when the need calls.

I look at it like this - personally I LOVE those Rick's with the narrow necks...for an otherwise big guy (I'm 6'2", around 230 lbs at the moment), I actually have rather small hands, so those really narrow necks really are quite lovely to me. That said, while I'm sure I would get some use out of one, I also don't see one ever replacing my Mexican Strats either...it's not my sound and it's not what I'm comfortable playing, so what's the point of having one? To show other people I can afford it? Why should I give a rat's butt? Same goes for vintage instruments...I've played many guitars from the 50's and 60's over the years and I really just don't like most of them...most of the necks on those things feel like boat oars to me, so what's the point in having one, let alone forking out that kind of money for one? So I can lock it in a hermetically sealed case with an alarm on it? To me that's just horrendously wasteful. While I too can get pretty much anything I want today, I've also stood in those not-so-proverbial food lines...back when my wife went thru her run with cancer (some folks here may remember that), we were down to NOTHING...almost lost our house. So no, I will NOT be wasteful like that...especially not for irrational concepts like ego and especially not any anachronistic sense of nationalistic pride.

So, what is "crap"? It's a matter of perspective. For those who think they need or want or somehow think they deserve "the best", certainly something like an MIM or MIJ or CIC would be well beneath them...after all, why would ANYONE want that kind of junk, right? Doesn't make them better players of course...it's simply their own personal attitudes and preconceptions more than anything. For someone who's used to Mercedes and BMW, certainly a humble Chevy or Ford is beneath them too...but at the end of the day, the Chevy (or Ford) will still get you from point A to point B (and typically for A LOT less money). Likewise, for a guitar player it should be more about having something you can play...something that gets the job done. If that cheap $100 Strat you got off Craigslist gets you where you need to go, it can hardly be considered "crap".

If people worried less about where their guitars were made (or the collective parts) and MORE about their playing, we'd have a lot more decent musicians in the world.

Just another $.02 worth...don't spend it all in one place.


Agree much of what you say, lomitus. Playing a Squier never did Jeff Healey any harm!

Can't speak for the US, but I reckon if you played some of the stuff we had in England in the 60's, you'd call it crap as well! Huge necks, often warped and impossible to fix, action you couldn't adjust lower than about 1/4", lethal fret ends, tuners made of cheese and about as stable, humbuckers that weren't, the crudest of trems, and that's just off the top of my head! Added to the fact that we were all skint and therefore couldn't afford to fix/have fixed what could be fixed, these guitars were a serious struggle! All you could say is that they certainly toughened your fingers up!

Any Squier from the last 10-15 years would've been heaven back then, and - as you say - forgetting snob value, they do the job just fine. For recording, I have a Squier Bronco bass, cheap as chips, and the neck is very nice indeed. I've upgraded the pots and output jack, and put flatwounds on it, but otherwise it's standard.

Like you, I'm now in a position where I can buy pretty much what I want, but if it all went wrong I'd be very happy with a Squier, cheap clean amp, and a Rat! In fact, wringing a great solo out of cheap gear is rather satisfying - feels like going back to your roots...

Cheers - Peter.
Peter, I guess since I was the unfortunate poor soul who 1st used the word "crap" on this thread, I've already apologized. However, I was was referring to the "stuff" that you just described. That's all there was in the 60's unless you stepped up to the big name makers. There were no Squires or playable affordable instruments. I was playing barre chords on a Sears Trutone with the action approaching 1/2 inch and forget playing anything up the neck. I'm fortunate to now own a much maligned USA Strat and Chinese acoustic that I scrimped and saved to get. My main source of income is Social Security and no savings or anything else. I also live in a 800 sq ft rented 85 yr old shack, so I'm very appreciative about what I have. Perhaps the several rants provided by the poster above (not you Peter) were for someone else. Certainly not me, but since I brought up the "crap" word, I assume he was addressing me. I just thought I should dispel this misunderstanding by clarifying and throwing some water on it.
Cheers :roll:


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Post subject: Re: What do you think about this Fender Japan Strat?
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:01 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:49 am
Posts: 661
Location: Cambridge UK
I don't know, Larry - I obviously don't read it quite the same as you do! I didn't think anyone was getting steamed up over the 'crap' thing. Hope not, anyway. I didn't think you needed to apologise for what I also thought was the truth - that the 60's guitars a lot of us played (on both sides of the pond, it seems) were NOT great! Trouble is with forums/emails etc is that things rarely seem to read as the writer intended!

I was lucky enough to go into a steady job with a good pension and lump sum (who thinks about that when they start a job?!), but for many years I had nothing. Any playable guitar was a result...!

Cheers - Peter.


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Post subject: Re: What do you think about this Fender Japan Strat?
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:42 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:21 pm
Posts: 394
Location: Oklahoma
Peter S wrote:
I don't know, Larry - I obviously don't read it quite the same as you do! I didn't think anyone was getting steamed up over the 'crap' thing. Hope not, anyway. I didn't think you needed to apologise for what I also thought was the truth - that the 60's guitars a lot of us played (on both sides of the pond, it seems) were NOT great! Trouble is with forums/emails etc is that things rarely seem to read as the writer intended!

I was lucky enough to go into a steady job with a good pension and lump sum (who thinks about that when they start a job?!), but for many years I had nothing. Any playable guitar was a result...!

Cheers - Peter.
Hey Peter. Right. No harm, no foul whatever that means. Life can throw some curve balls, but we're still standing. I've probably had 15 employers over the last 40+ years and the last one told me I looked tired and sent me off to retirement. It's all good. My wife and I have been together since 1970, 3 great kids and their wonderful spouses, no major health issues, and the Lord has never fallen short regarding provision. On top of all that, I finally have time to play my guitar. What more can you ask?
Take care. :)


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