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Post subject: Too much break angle?
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:40 pm
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Hi, I've recently replaced the stock tuners on my American Special Strat with Fender locking tuners. These are staggered (1, 2 and 3 short and 4, 5 and 6 tall). I've noticed that the new tall post combined with the second tree creates more break angle on the D string than my previous setup, to the point that I'm afraid that it will eventually break because of the added tension (and I don't think it can be healthy for the nut either).

Any suggestions?


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Post subject: Re: Too much break angle?
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:15 am
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Has it proved problematic so far?
You're looking for a fix to a problem that doesn't exist.

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Post subject: Re: Too much break angle?
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:06 am
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My Special came with the 'F' logo'd lockers - same as yours, I think - and I can't see a problem. The break angle (at the nut) is created by the tree, not the tuner. Other than a spot of 3-in-1 (or similar) on the trees & nut, I wouldn't worry about it!

Cheers - Peter.


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Post subject: Re: Too much break angle?
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:13 am
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Post subject: Re: Too much break angle?
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:11 am
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My 2006 Strat has staggered locking tuners and does not have any string tree's, that is the way it came from the factory. You may not need the string tree any more. Try removing it and see if it gives you any trouble.

8)

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Post subject: Re: Too much break angle?
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:37 am
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omar59 wrote:
My 2006 Strat has staggered locking tuners and does not have any string tree's, that is the way it came from the factory. You may not need the string tree any more. Try removing it and see if it gives you any trouble.

8)


+1000


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Post subject: Re: Too much break angle?
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:19 pm
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Yep take the trees off. The American Deluxe, which to my knowledge has had factory fitted staggered tuners fittes since 2004. Only has one string tree and the E&B strings. And that is really raised up in comparison to the traditional butterfly type tree.
String trees are a very imperfect solution to a problem that shouldn't really exist. I can't think of one other traditional guitar manufacturer that has a flat headstock. If you look on vintage correct strats and teles, that only have one string tree. Anything thinner than a .17 G string sounds funny, almost slightly square wave. Because of the lack of break angle over the nut. I don't find that same problem on my Am Deluxe, that has staggered locking tuners. Or my CS Strat that has staggered non locking tuners.

The other thing is, string trees are counterproductive to locking tuners. Locking tuners added tuning stability comes from them having next to no winds round the post. The American Deluxe manual tells you to pull the string tight through the tuner hole, then lock. And tune up. This way the string can't slip on it's own windings. Which I find to be the main cause of guitars with loads of winds round the tuners, going out of tune.
String tree's also have the potential to impair tuning stability by way of the string snagging on the tree.

So lose the trees and enjoy your tuners to their fullest.

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Post subject: Re: Too much break angle?
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:49 am
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Hmmm - just to be awkward, I always fit 2 trees to my Strats (or 1 extra if it already has 1)! Even though they all have staggered lockers - both 'F' logo'd and Sperzels.

Firstly, I find that, with distortion, I get a strange tone from behind the nut on the 3rd (and sometimes 2nd) strings when hitting hard while muting. I use 9-42 in E flat. It may be a combination of my playing style and the lower tuning, but string trees cure it completely.

Secondly, on my CS Strat (no trees originally) the 1st string would occasionally jump out of the nut. OK, it went back for a new nut as Fender acknowledged it wasn't right, but I still felt that trees would help. And they did - the guitar immediately sounded better to my ears. As do my other Strats with 2 trees - I considered it a plus point that my recently-bought Special came with 2 trees.

Thirdly, with a bit of lube when putting new strings on, I've had no stability problems or other negatives.

Obviously I respect the opinion of what appears to be the majority, but I just thought I should mention these points! :)

Cheers - Peter.


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Post subject: Re: Too much break angle?
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:29 am
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Peter the problem you get with the G and B strings is exactly the one I mentioned of too little break angle over the nut. Caused by having a headstock face which runs parallel to the majority of the string.
If you switch your G up to a .18. It'll go away. Not sure on the B, but think a similar increase in thickness would yield similar results.

The lube idea, where do you lube? On the string around the post?

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Post subject: Re: Too much break angle?
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:34 am
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nikininja wrote:
The lube idea, where do you lube? On the string around the post?


The nut slots and the contact points for the string trees

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Post subject: Re: Too much break angle?
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:49 am
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stratmangler wrote:
nikininja wrote:
The lube idea, where do you lube? On the string around the post?


The nut slots and the contact points for the string trees

Yes Chris - that's what I lube. A spot of 3-in-1; cheap & cheerful!

Nikininja - I expect you're right, but I don't want an 18 thou G! :) I just prefer string trees to both cure it, and for the overall sound. But that's just me...

Cheers - Peter.


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Post subject: Re: Too much break angle?
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:11 pm
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stratmangler wrote:
Has it proved problematic so far?
You're looking for a fix to a problem that doesn't exist.



+1

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Post subject: Re: Too much break angle?
Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:09 am
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stratmangler wrote:
nikininja wrote:
The lube idea, where do you lube? On the string around the post?


The nut slots and the contact points for the string trees


Yes I too lube the nut slots, saddles and around the spring trees on my Special, holds tuning perfectly for days, also I use 4 tension springs and 10's and my my bridge is set to float.
As for locking tuners that are staggered they possibly don't need spring trees...


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Post subject: Re: Too much break angle?
Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:44 am
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Nah forget that, lubing the slots. It's bad in the long run. It just attracts dust which mixes with the grease. I use dental floss, works well for keeping the slots clean.

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Post subject: Re: Too much break angle?
Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:13 am
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It only attracts dust if you use anything greasy.

Try graphite. You can use any graphite powder or even the tip of a pencil. Works quite fine and doesn't give you any trouble.

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