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Post subject: Re: Need help with truss rod adjustment
Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:44 am
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stratmangler wrote:
Let's go back a few steps.
You have a 4mm gap at the 17th fret when you have the low E string fretted together at the 1st fret and the 21st/22nd fret?


No, the 4mm gap is on an unfretted low E string at the 17th fret.


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Post subject: Re: Need help with truss rod adjustment
Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:37 am
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agent_catnip wrote:
No, the 4mm gap is on an unfretted low E string at the 17th fret.

This bit was unclear on your first post.

Why would you try to adjust the action by turning the truss rod?
The truss rod is designed to straighten the neck relative to the forces exerted on it by string tension.
You do not adjust string height by turning the truss rod.

If you're going to adjust the action (string height) then your first port of call is the saddles at the bridge.
They need lowering first.
If there is no room to drop the saddles then your next move is to use the micro tilt adjuster to adjust the pitch of the neck relative to the body, which will in turn lower the string height relative to the fretboard.
If you don't have a micro tilt then you need to remove the neck, fit a shim at the body end of the neck pocket and reattach the neck.

Now that it's clear about adjusting the string action, let's address potential problems with incorrect truss rod adjustment.

If you over turn the truss rod in a clockwise direction you'll have one of a number of things happen - you will either strip the thread on the truss rod, strip the thread out of the adjustment nut, a combination of the the two previous problems, and, in the worst case scenario you'll break the truss rod.
And this bunch of issues is where I think you are right now.

If you have screwed the truss rod up then a repair by a properly qualified technician could well turn out to be an expensive exercise.
It might be less costly to fit a replacement neck, or even buy another guitar.

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Post subject: Re: Need help with truss rod adjustment
Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:03 am
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stratmangler wrote:
Why would you try to adjust the action by turning the truss rod?
The truss rod is designed to straighten the neck relative to the forces exerted on it by string tension.
You do not adjust string height by turning the truss rod.


It's not about the action. From what I've read, first thing you do before adjusting anything on your guitar is checking your neck, as there is no point in adjusting action if the neck is curved. I can see the curve with my naked eye, and fretting on the 1st and the 17th frets leaves me with a 2mm gap at the 8th fret, which is not ok as it should be about 0.25mm.


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Post subject: Re: Need help with truss rod adjustment
Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:27 am
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In which case something is either stripped or broken.

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Post subject: Re: Need help with truss rod adjustment
Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:54 am
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agent_catnip wrote:
Fretting at the 1st and the 17th, the height at the 8th fret is 2mm. It was actually the same when I started the adjustment.
Yah, that does seem excessive.
Perhaps there is something to the idea that the rod may have snapped.
I'm with Nokie.
I always see an immediate movement of approximately 90% of the total final movement.
I have never seen it any other way.
In my experience, the waiting is for the purpose of getting that last 10% to settle in.
If you aren't seeing ANYTHING right away it seems to me that indicates something is not right with the rod.
If you aren't seeing anything after a few hours to a day then that removes all doubt.
There is something wrong with the rod.
Take it to a professional.

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Post subject: Re: Need help with truss rod adjustment
Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:18 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I always see an immediate movement of approximately 90% of the total final movement.
I have never seen it any other way.
In my experience, the waiting is for the purpose of getting that last 10% to settle in.
If you aren't seeing ANYTHING right away it seems to me that indicates something is not right with the rod.
If you aren't seeing anything after a few hours to a day then that removes all doubt.
There is something wrong with the rod.
Take it to a professional.


+1

And I would seek a second opinion from a qualified luthier before deciding on a course of action.

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Post subject: Re: Need help with truss rod adjustment
Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:49 pm
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I will say it again, loosen or (remove the strings) tension............not loosening the string will result in no movement of the neck---because the trem springs are absorbing the string tension. You could possibly damage the truss rod as Stratmangler said earlier. Re-tuning after each adjustment, leads me to believe you haven't loosened the strings enough to allow the neck to settle back into a straighter plane.

Forget about tuning/intonation/bridge adjustments; your trying to get the neck within specs!!!
somewhere between .008"/.20mm and .012"/.30mm


Quote:
I always see an immediate movement of approximately 90% of the total final movement.
I have never seen it any other way.
In my experience, the waiting is for the purpose of getting that last 10% to settle in.
If you aren't seeing ANYTHING right away it seems to me that indicates something is not right with the rod.
If you aren't seeing anything after a few hours to a day then that removes all doubt.
There is something wrong with the rod.
Take it to a professional.

++++++Exactly what he said++++++


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Post subject: Re: Need help with truss rod adjustment
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:14 pm
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sfceric64 wrote:
I will say it again, loosen or (remove the strings) tension............not loosening the string will result in no movement of the neck---because the trem springs are absorbing the string tension. You could possibly damage the truss rod as Stratmangler said earlier. Re-tuning after each adjustment, leads me to believe you haven't loosened the strings enough to allow the neck to settle back into a straighter plane.

I don't quite follow. With a properly installed and working truss rod, the neck will move whether or not the strings are tightened to pitch and whether or not there is a whammy bridge. I certainly understand that a floating Strat bridge, for example, will absorb the pull of strings as the truss rod is being tightened but the neck itself will still experience movement.


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Post subject: Re: Need help with truss rod adjustment
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:21 pm
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Nokie, I don't agree with all you write


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Post subject: Re: Need help with truss rod adjustment
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:38 pm
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Nokie wrote:
sfceric64 wrote:
I will say it again, loosen or (remove the strings) tension............not loosening the string will result in no movement of the neck---because the trem springs are absorbing the string tension. You could possibly damage the truss rod as Stratmangler said earlier. Re-tuning after each adjustment, leads me to believe you haven't loosened the strings enough to allow the neck to settle back into a straighter plane.

I don't quite follow. With a properly installed and working truss rod, the neck will move whether or not the strings are tightened to pitch and whether or not there is a whammy bridge. I certainly understand that a floating Strat bridge, for example, will absorb the pull of strings as the truss rod is being tightened but the neck itself will still experience movement.
Absolutely correct within normal tolerances in the hundredths/thousandths of mm's. But with the neck relief at 2.0mm(nearly 8x the specs) the excess tension of the strings(shortened length) hinders the necks ability to recover, removing the strings will allow the neck to recover quickly and it will be easier and faster than pulling the neck straight under string tension. Fine adjustments will be required under string tension once the neck recovers to a visible flat profile, no relief and no back bow.
I felt he was already at the point where he could strip the truss rod screw and do further damage. Just my .02 :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Need help with truss rod adjustment
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:41 pm
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sfceric64 wrote:
Nokie wrote:
sfceric64 wrote:
I will say it again, loosen or (remove the strings) tension............not loosening the string will result in no movement of the neck---because the trem springs are absorbing the string tension. You could possibly damage the truss rod as Stratmangler said earlier. Re-tuning after each adjustment, leads me to believe you haven't loosened the strings enough to allow the neck to settle back into a straighter plane.

I don't quite follow. With a properly installed and working truss rod, the neck will move whether or not the strings are tightened to pitch and whether or not there is a whammy bridge. I certainly understand that a floating Strat bridge, for example, will absorb the pull of strings as the truss rod is being tightened but the neck itself will still experience movement.
Absolutely correct within normal tolerances in the hundredths/thousandths of mm's. But with the neck relief at 2.0mm(nearly 8x the specs) the excess tension of the strings(shortened length) hinders the necks ability to recover, removing the strings will allow the neck to recover quickly and it will be easier and faster than pulling the neck straight under string tension. Fine adjustments will be required under string tension once the neck recovers to a visible flat profile, no relief and no back bow.
I felt he was already at the point where he could strip the truss rod screw and do further damage. Just my .02 :wink:

Well I appreciate the explanation but it sounds like you're over thinkin' this. On several headstock-adjustable Strats with properly working truss rods and strings at pitch, I've never had trouble jamming the proper allen wrench in and twisting away to achieve desired flatness in real time. Loosening the strings does not sound like a faster and easier method - but of course we all have our methods.


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Post subject: Re: Need help with truss rod adjustment
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:28 pm
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Quote:
I've never had trouble jamming the proper allen wrench in and twisting away to achieve desired flatness in real time
Me either, normally I would agree 100% w/ that.
I think he needs to evaluate the neck & truss rod w/o any tension after three full turns, just sayin.
If there is still relief w/out any string tension and the truss rod works properly, it is to easy to adjust it straight away from there.


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Post subject: Re: Need help with truss rod adjustment
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:54 pm
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sfceric64 wrote:
Quote:
I've never had trouble jamming the proper allen wrench in and twisting away to achieve desired flatness in real time
Me either, normally I would agree 100% w/ that.
I think he needs to evaluate the neck & truss rod w/o any tension after three full turns, just sayin.
If there is still relief w/out any string tension and the truss rod works properly, it is to easy to adjust it straight away from there.

It's certainly worth a try.


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