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Post subject: A Couple Of Mods - Do they Impact Tone?
Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 5:55 am
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I have recently created a topic on this forum about the “major” modifications I’ve made to my USA Standard Stratocaster (changes to neck, pickups and tone circuit). But there are a couple of other things I have done to the guitar that are quite minor and in no way permanent and would be interested to hear any comments or opinions people might have.

The first concerns the tremolo. I very rarely use the trem but do sometimes set it up to work in either the floating (2 post knife edge trem) position or flat to the body so that notes can only be flattened. I sometimes just use 5 springs to hold it flat against the body but my preferred method of blocking is where there may be room for debate as the tone hounds have differing views about the tonal properties of having the bridge flat against the body.

To ensure the bridge is in the standard specification position (back of bridge raised approx. 1/8 inch off body) I put blocks both in front of and behind the inertia bar as well as using 5 strings. This effectively locks the bridge in the floating position. The block behind the inertia bar is a slightly tapered wedge so I can ensure the inertia bar is very secure in the cavity between the 2 blocks and the back of the bridge is raised off the body. Having the bridge in the elevated position means I don’t have to raise the saddles high on their adjuster screws to set the action.

The second “change” is one about which there are many discussions and even Eric Johnson has a view on it. I am, of course, referring to the backplate!

Playing my Strat acoustically with the back-plate on, I am sure I can hear a reverb effect caused by the trem springs vibrating. Whether or not this effect can be heard when the guitar is plugged into an amp is not a question I can answer. But assuming it does, then why should removing the back-plate change the tone? The only answer I could come up with is that with back-plate off and the guitar held against the player’s body the springs may not be vibrating (as they would in an unencumbered cavity with the back-plate in place).

So what I have done is to lay a strip of sound proofing foam across the trem springs and replaced the back-plate. The foam is just thick enough so that the pressure of the back-plate stops the springs from vibrating. It certainly changes the tone played acoustically (no reverb effect) but what about when plugged in? I still don’t know but I don’t dislike it so have left the foam in there.

I would be interested to hear any comments/opinions/violent disagreements or experiences on these topics.


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Post subject: Re: A Couple Of Mods - Do they Impact Tone?
Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 7:46 pm
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fifty4 wrote:
So what I have done is to lay a strip of sound proofing foam across the trem springs and replaced the back-plate. The foam is just thick enough so that the pressure of the back-plate stops the springs from vibrating.

You can put strips of foam inside the springs. (Or stripped cigarette filters, if you want to be old school.)


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Post subject: Re: A Couple Of Mods - Do they Impact Tone?
Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 10:10 pm
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Trem claw spring vibrations are not "picked up" and sent to the amplifier. They are not directly above the pole pieces of the pickups. It could be argued that they are below the pole pieces but they are nowhere near as close as the strings are, vibrate along a narrower path and are also separated not just by distance but also by wood and (most often) shielding. Any minuscule signal their vibrations might generate in the pickup coils would be vastly overshadowed. We have, after all, the ears of mere mortals. Could you pick it up on an oscilloscope? I dunno. Maybe. Prolly not.

What the vibration of the springs could possibly do might be to help perpetuate vibration in the body wood which could theoretically act as negative damping within the wood itself. If that is true then damping the spings could mean a loss of sustain. I don't really know for sure. That's just speculation but I think it's good speculation. That's just not an experiment I've ever tried because .... well, because you can't hear the springs through an amplifier so the idea would never cross my mind to dampen the springs.

Spring cavity covers on or off? Nonsense for mere mortal ears and voodoo mumbo-jumbo for those who claim other wise if you ask me.

There.
I said it.
Sue me.
:wink:

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Post subject: Re: A Couple Of Mods - Do they Impact Tone?
Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 12:39 am
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IMHO, there are several types of mod/sound difference relations.
Some mods result in differences audible for "everybody".
Some result in differences a practiced "musician's ear" can hear.
And then there are the ones where the difference can only be heard with "ear/heart/soul" combination listening.
Funny thing is, many of those mods switch category.

And yes, I installed the "Clapton trem block" in my Strat... :wink:


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Post subject: Re: A Couple Of Mods - Do they Impact Tone?
Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 9:36 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Trem claw spring vibrations are not "picked up" and sent to the amplifier. They are not directly above the pole pieces of the pickups. It could be argued that they are below the pole pieces but they are nowhere near as close as the strings are, vibrate along a narrower path and are also separated not just by distance but also by wood and (most often) shielding. Any minuscule signal their vibrations might generate in the pickup coils would be vastly overshadowed. We have, after all, the ears of mere mortals. Could you pick it up on an oscilloscope? I dunno. Maybe. Prolly not.

Probably. Because I can hear it faintly if I use a solid state practice amp with headphones and crank it up, and "play" the springs. That should count as empirical evidence. If I dime the amp and there's no background noise, I can even hear it if I mute the strings[*].

My guess from an engineering point of view is that it's not the springs being picked up, but a combination of (a) the vibrations resonating through the trem block, reaching the bridge and then the strings, and (b) the vibrations resonating through the guitar, reaching both the nut and pickups. The end result is that it causes a slight string vibration and also a slight pickup vibration[*].

For a tube amp or when actually playing, it's going to drown in the noise and real signal, of course. But if it can be heard, even if it's in unrealistic circumstances, it can be measured.

What about the rear cover? I have no idea, as I can't easily make the springs resonate with the cover on, making it difficult to test. But it wouldn't be infeasible that it can create a small resonance chamber, and may contribute to some frequencies of the springs vibrating being louder. But almost certainly not enough to be heard when playing, no matter how golden your ears are.
So I'd call it HiFi snake oil of the type that may have an effect, but not one that matters even one bit. It'd be like arguing whether it's better to have your speakers rest on marble or lead slabs. Sure it's going to make a difference, but not one that matters to mortals.

[*]: Contrary to what some think, the electric signal is produced by the magnetic field and the strings moving relative to each other. Both the strings vibrating and the pickups vibrating cause the field between the two to be disturbed, and it doesn't matter which moves from an electromagnetic point of view. The final signal comprise both, although the string vibration is going to be far more significant if you actually play the guitar with a pick or fingers instead of placing a vibrator against the pickups.


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Post subject: Re: A Couple Of Mods - Do they Impact Tone?
Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 11:20 am
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There's nothing contrary to popular belief here, at least not to my knowledge.
The signal is generated by the changing magnetic field the pup sees above the pole pieces due to the oscillating mass of the steel in the vibrating strings.
I don't think anybody has ever been in disagreement with that.
I, however, am somewhat concerned by your other statement.
If the pups vibrate there could possibly be constructive or destructive interference affecting the signal generated by that changing magnetic field.
I do not envision either as being a good thing as the waveform would almost certainly be distorted by it and it would do so in an irregular and continually random fashion.
Generally speaking, the pups are considered to be not vibrating and like Martha says, that's a good thing.
Being held in place by threaded fasteners and damped by surgical tubing or coil springs certainly places limits on their ability to move.
That is a good thing and we want to keep the pups from vibrating as much as possible for the very reason that their "travel" room is severely limited by their constraints which means it is almost impossible to control or predict how their vibrations come into and go out of phase with the relatively free moving strings.
Due to the relationship between constrained pups and free moving strings, that differential would most certainly be continuously varying and just as certainly, not good for tone.
My old guitar tech in British Columbia used to place foam around each pickup in a guitar in order to prevent pickups from moving.
He viewed vibration in pickups as being the source of all manner of issues that may be otherwise difficult to troubleshoot.
We had a number of conversations on the subject.
I know that in the overachieving, anally retentive, obsessive, compulsive, gear nerd crowd pickup vibration has at times been referred to as part of good tone development.
I am entirely certain those guys are out to lunch.

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Post subject: Re: A Couple Of Mods - Do they Impact Tone?
Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 12:09 pm
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I'm not much of an traditionalist, but I like the way Leo designed the Strat (and Tele) it's just that Strat has more variables cause of the trem block, I like when I hear springs acoustically, and they sure won't make you a worse or better player, it's all part of a Stratocaster and I leave it as is.


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Post subject: Re: A Couple Of Mods - Do they Impact Tone?
Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 12:22 pm
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I blocked the tremolo on my Strat with a stack of quarters. It seemed to increase sustain, but I noticed no other changes otherwise.

The only thing leaving the backplate off does is snag your shirt (or pull your tummy hairs if you're playing shirtless...or worse if you're a naturalist who straps his Strat to Jimmy Page levels...) :shock:

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Post subject: Re: A Couple Of Mods - Do they Impact Tone?
Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 9:39 am
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I remember reading somewhere about a country Strat player that tried to hear a difference in tone with the trem cover off, and discovered the springs were scratching his belt buckle to much, and put the cover back on
mud


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Post subject: Re: A Couple Of Mods - Do they Impact Tone?
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 10:05 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Trem claw spring vibrations are not "picked up" and sent to the amplifier...


Yes they most certainly are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG-98OfBI7I

The recording was through a POD XT, so only the signal from the pickups is recorded. No mumbo-jumbo, it is the real deal. :wink:

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