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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 3:24 pm
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SYNCHRONIC wrote:
The thing is when I get the action low enough for my liking, there is a ridiculous amount of fret buzz and choking going on.


Sounds like the neck needs a skosh more relief.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 8:32 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
SYNCHRONIC wrote:
The thing is when I get the action low enough for my liking, there is a ridiculous amount of fret buzz and choking going on.


Sounds like the neck needs a skosh more relief.

Arjay


Nice one man, I dropped the trem posts pretty much as far as they go, then added a touch more relief and I am 85% there now! Still some buzzing around the first 5 frets on the lower strings, but nowhere near as bad as before and the action wasnt even as low as it is now.

I think perhaps the final stage will be getting some trem saddle shims to get all the strings at the correct height for the radius then dropping the bridge height that final notch.


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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 8:03 am
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It's good to hear that you've managed to get your guitar setup somewhere near to the way is was before.

I am at a loss to understand why you need shims for the bridge saddles.
The Kahler Spyder is radiused at 12 inches, and the guitars that it was fitted to all had 12 inch radius fingerboards.
As far as I can recall Fender did not make compound radius necks back at the time when your guitar was made, so it should have a 12 inch radius from nut to guitar body.
If the fret job is any good then it too should be radiused at 12 inches, so you shouldn't need to mess about with the saddles, other than adjusting them fore and aft for intonation purposes.

Have you looked at the other end of the neck?
How much clearance do you have above the 1st fret when you fret the open strings at the 3rd fret?
To clarify what I mean, fret your top E string at the 3rd fret, and measure the clearance at the 1st fret.
If there's no clearance then the nut is too low, and with it being a locking nut the whole thing needs to be raised with shims.
A decent action is a balance between nut height and bridge height, and neck relief is a factor too.

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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 8:04 am
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If your buzzfree action is even close to the 4mm you mentioned before, IMHO you're definitely not yet "85% there now".
A Contemporary Strat with a Kahler has a 12" radius, so it should play very nicely with action set below 2mm; the Fender recommendation is 1,6mm...

I don't know what level skills you have on setups, (apologies if I'm wrong here) but at the moment it seems you're shooting in the dark.

I still support the idea you take the guitar back to the tech, several things can be wrong.
My earlier "quick fix" with the truss rod isn't meant for this size problems. Now I'm thinking, maybe shimming has changed (add/remove) during the refret and the neck is angled wrong, worst case scenario the new fret tangs bent the neck (but: the latter is rare, so not likely).

If you insist on a DIY setup, check & adjust the neck angle and nut height first, and then follow the Strat setup guide, step by step and in the order the guide gives.
And the wonderful information super highway also has the Spyder manual available.


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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 9:24 am
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Thanks guys, I've had that Fender setup guide open on my computer for a few days now just for reference, and although I also found that Kahler Spyder trem manual, my trem is slightly different than the ones shown there (mine has no individual string height poles, or the ability to threat the whole string including the ball end through the back tubes).

Thanks for letting me know that the Kahler Spyder is also radiused for 12", I have been searching everywhere to try and confirm whether the radius of the bridge is the same as the neck, looks like it is... so not sure why there are issues with some strings buzzing more than others.


When fretting at the 3rd fret on low E string (Heaviest string) there is approx 1mm clearance at the first fret, which seems about right?

Also I have gotten the action at the 12th and 17th fret down to 2mm, which is getting very close to the recommended 1.6mm factory setup.

Ironically the string that is buzzing the most is the Low E string (thickest), even though it has the most clearance due to the radius of the neck/frets, hopefully the guitar tech will be able to hone in on these last final tweaks.

For most people this guitar would be setup fine now, but I am very particular about having an incredibly easy to play and fast guitar.

Actually now after testing the buzz on each string/fret, the Low E and A strings are both buzzing most everywhere, which gets exponentially worse the further up the fretboard you go.


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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 11:40 am
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As I mentioned earlier, I measured the radius on my "under the bed" guitar (it's a Japanese HM Strat), and this has a Kahler Spyder fitted to it.
The Spyder here is one that will not take the string ball ends.

I have just measured the first fret action on my MiM Standard, and the clearance is 0.5mm, both top and bottom E.
This guitar has a 9.5 inch radius, and is strung up with D'Addario EXL115s (011-049), and tuned a half step down.

My American Deluxe has around 0.5mm on the bottom E, and roughly 0.25mm on the top E.
This guitar has a compound radius, a roller nut, and is strung up with D'Addario EXL120s (010-046), and in standard E tuning.

Both guitars have a pretty slinky, low action (I don't see the point in fighting a guitar).
I find I get enough fight from the string tension, which is why I use the gauges I do.
I also currently play acoustic more often than the electrics, and mine is strung up with Martin MSP7100 (012-054), which by old school acoustic players standards are for wimps :lol:
The string type and gauge I've mentioned is the default for Martin if no preference has been stated.

So the 1mm you've mentioned is probably around about right for the string gauges you're using.

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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 12:13 pm
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SYNCHRONIC wrote:
When fretting at the 3rd fret on low E string (Heaviest string) there is approx 1mm clearance at the first fret, which seems about right?

That seems high to me. TUSQ nut installation guide gives instructional measures .010" (0,25mm) for lowE, .006" (0,15mm) (capo on third fret, measure the gap between first fret top and string bottom).
On my own guitars I go lower - after all, a lot of zero fret guitars have been made with all frets at the same level.

SYNCHRONIC wrote:
Actually now after testing the buzz on each string/fret, the Low E and A strings are both buzzing most everywhere, which gets exponentially worse the further up the fretboard you go.

One possibility: recheck your relief, you may have adjusted the truss rod too loose. IMHO, the Strat setup guide recommends too much relief, I prefer to follow Mr. Erlewine's "as straight as possible" rule of thumb.
(And: I'm still wondering about the wrong neck angle possibility - Strats from factory are close to 0°; body and neck in line. A shim might make a 1°-2° angle.)

Personally, when I work on a buzz problematic guitar, I set the neck as straight as possible, then try to get it play well with a light touch. And the general rule of course is to set a guitar to factory specs first, then adjust to one's own preferences.


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