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Post subject: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ 1986
Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 11:01 am
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Hey guys

Just wondering if anyone here has any expertise in getting strats (particular those with floating trems) setup nicely, and what issues may be going on.

I own an 1986 (I believe) Made in Japan "Contemporary 22" Strat, with Kahler Spyder trem.

I recently got it refretted (about a week or so ago) with some nice medium-ish Evo Gold frets, the frets themselves and the install job are great, but since then I have been unable to get my action low enough for my playing style, and the strings feel very taught and high tension, despite them being .008 gauge Thomastik-Infeld Power Brights (which when used before the refret was like playing on silk).

I've spent about 15+ hours tweaking with the bridge height, truss rod, adding shims onto individual bridge saddles etc... and have gotten it closer to how I like, but despite still not being low enough action compared to how it used to be, there is still also some buzz on the lower frets.

Anyone have any pointers or ideas? Here are some pictures of the guitars, any help would be greatly appreciated.


Image

Image

Thanks!


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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 12:33 pm
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I block the trem in a stable and level condition before I do any adjustments and it may just be the photo but the fret job looks a bit untidy, maybe a good idea to check it with a good straight edge to see if you have any high frets.. It may also be an issue with the nut.


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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 1:59 pm
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It would have been sensible if the tech who refretted the guitar would also have set it up. Still not too late for that. :wink:

But to guess a quick fix, check the relief first.


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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 2:18 pm
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jmattis wrote:
It would have been sensible if the tech who refretted the guitar would also have set it up. Still not too late for that.


+1

That's the protocol for most professional luthiers.

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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 5:00 pm
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Thanks for the tips guys, to answer some of the questions

The frets definitely appear flat when using a metal ruler which is dead straight to the eye, there is a bit of glue on the side of some of the frets but that is only cosmetic, one of the previous owners may have ripped out the original frets creating a slight gap when the new frets were installed, so the luthier had to put a bit of glue just to fill it in.

When using the string (1st fret to 22nd pressed down) as a straight edge, there is currently about a piece of papers worth of relief around the 7th/8th frets, but perhaps not in the middle of the neck.

The luthier did mention that he believed the neck radius and the bridge radius are not the same, although considering how well it used to play, and how low the action I was able to get while using .008 without as much fret buzz as there is now with the new frets, I think that is possibly incorrect, also while adding some shimming to the bridge saddles, I saw that the trem plate is layered with different heights for each strings, so I'm not so sure that is the issue.

Nut is also a possibility, but the action is still quite high at the nut (and it has been shimmed with a few mm of maple veneer), yet it still buzzes around the 1st,2nd, and 3rd frets and elsewhere.

I will be taking it into the shop for some advice this saturday, but literally cannot afford to pay for another setup (the guy said he set it up as low action as he could, but that some strings where deading out while others rang clear) as I spent all my money on this refret, which I kind of regret doing now.

It definitely seems wierd to me that a guitar with worn out, shaved down frets can have a lower action without buzz than a completely fresh set of frets.


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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 12:30 am
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You're giving controversial information... First post, "the frets themselves and the install job are great", now "the frets definitely appear flat"; "bit of glue on the side of some of the frets " etc.

All in all, based solely on the info you give, seems like the refretter had not finished the job when he/she/it returned the guitar to you.

SYNCHRONIC wrote:
(the guy said he set it up as low action as he could, but that some strings where deading out while others rang clear)

So, the setup job was included in the refret price..? In my 'hood, the tech could not charge more money, since the guitar isn't yet satisfactory to the customer - consumer legislation etc.
Maybe (I'm on thin ice here) the tech wasn't familiar with the Spyder, and that causes the problems.

So, take it back to the tech, explain calmly and friendly what you're unhappy with, see how he/she/it responds. The outcome should IMHO be that the tech corrects the job, no extra charge.

BTW1: The "different radius on neck and bridge" is nothing extraordinary if it goes the "right" way (flatter bridge).
BTW2: Arjay, I agree that usually the setup is (naturally) included in the refret price. But there are the occasional jobs where the tech only gets the neck to work on, didn't know if that was the case here.


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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 1:23 am
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SYNCHRONIC wrote:
The luthier did mention that he believed the neck radius and the bridge radius are not the same, although considering how well it used to play, and how low the action I was able to get while using .008 without as much fret buzz as there is now with the new frets, I think that is possibly incorrect, also while adding some shimming to the bridge saddles, I saw that the trem plate is layered with different heights for each strings, so I'm not so sure that is the issue

The bridge radius on a Kahler Spyder is 12 inches.

The guy who did the fretwork should be able to tell you definitively what the radius of various parts of the instrument are, because he should have a set of radius gauges so he can properly measure such things.
That's how I know what the radius on the bridge is - I just measured it with a radius gauge.

With you having a proper locking nut which clamps at the nut position I'd suggest that the radius there is likely to be the same.
SYNCHRONIC wrote:
It definitely seems wierd to me that a guitar with worn out, shaved down frets can have a lower action without buzz than a completely fresh set of frets.

It sounds to me that the guy who did the frets isn't all that clued up, and you have a bodged job on your hands.

Notice that at no point have I used the "L" word.
A luthier would show a lot more skill and pride in their work, and your guitar would have received a proper setup.
It would not have come out of the workshop feeling like an alien being.

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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 1:50 am
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Look to me the the guy who install fret is not a luthier, he is only somebody who how to do some work on a guitar. A luthier do a complete job.

To put new frets you must remove strings and neck from the guitar body.
Job done you must do a complet set up.

Or he is a unqualified luthier.


Last edited by stratele52 on Thu May 12, 2016 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 1:52 am
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Have to agree with most others here, SYNCHRONIC.

I've just had a maple-board Am Special refretted and the chap (professional) who did it set the guitar up to perfection, even though I told him not to worry too much as I'd be replacing the bridge soon. I haven't yet done this; just played the guitar as he gave it to me! Filing the nut as necessary is part of the job, and you should have (as I do) an invoice listing every action carried out. And I didn't pay through the nose either - just the industry average.

Assuming you still have confidence in him, I think you should go back to your chap and ask him to attend to the problems.

Cheers - Peter.


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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 1:56 am
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Peter S wrote:

Assuming you still have confidence in him, I think you should go back to your chap and ask him to attend to the problems.

Cheers - Peter.



+1


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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 6:50 am
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Cheers guys, I will definitely take it back in when he is next due to work at the shop (Saturday) and see if he can sort it out for me, in regards to me saying the "frets are definitely flat", I mean there are no high frets or anything like that, a straight ruler sits on top of every fret without gaps or rocking etc...

Heres hoping I can get my prize possesion guitar back to how it used to play, for example this is a little improvised soloing I did on it a couple of years back, I could never pull off the same speed and bending on the guitar as it is now....



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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 8:50 am
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stratele52 wrote:
To put new frets you must remove strings and neck from the guitar body.


Well, no, you obviously need to remove the strings, but not the neck. It can be more convenient to remove the neck and operate on it separately, but it's not required. (Set necks get refrets too...)

Back to the original problem: If the nut was raised before the refret, that's likely the cause of action having to be higher now. If putting new frets on, the nut has to be raised again to maintain the same clearance on the low numbered frets.

Also, the tech doing a setup doesn't necessarily mean that the setup will be perfect for you. If the humidity and temperature where you keep your guitar and play it is very different, you may need to do a setup in your environment.
Learning how to do a basic setup is knowledge every guitar player should have, unless they're traveling with a tech. It's not hard to learn or do, and it not only saves money and time, but you get it the way you want it, and for your storage/play environment.
A couple of days after I get the guitar back from any tech or luthier, I do a set-up. Not because they don't do a good job, but because they do it in their workshop, and often before the guitar has had a time to settle after their work.

Just like with tuning or re-stringing, the first couple of times a new student might need assistance from a teacher. But after that, he or she should be comfortable doing it without help. Same with basic set-up: use the help of others until you gain the skill. But learn the skill.

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly and set up a guitar. Specialization is for insects!
- Lazarus Long (Robert A. Heinlein); addition by Y.T.


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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 10:13 am
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arth1 wrote:
stratele52 wrote:
To put new frets you must remove strings and neck from the guitar body.


Well, no, you obviously need to remove the strings, but not the neck. It can be more convenient to remove the neck and operate on it separately, but it's not required. (Set necks get refrets too...)
.



I know, but on a Strat it is so easy to remove neck and luthier don't need to be carefull about the body when work on neck.


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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 11:39 am
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stratele52 wrote:
I know, but on a Strat it is so easy to remove neck and luthier don't need to be carefull about the body when work on neck.

Nor getting fret shavings into the pickups... Sure, they'll tape them, but fret shavings are crafty buggers who manage to get in through pickguard gaps or teleporting through the body... :D


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Post subject: Re: Trouble getting action/feel set nice after refret - MIJ
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 2:20 pm
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arth1 wrote:
stratele52 wrote:
To put new frets you must remove strings and neck from the guitar body.


Well, no, you obviously need to remove the strings, but not the neck. It can be more convenient to remove the neck and operate on it separately, but it's not required. (Set necks get refrets too...)

Back to the original problem: If the nut was raised before the refret, that's likely the cause of action having to be higher now. If putting new frets on, the nut has to be raised again to maintain the same clearance on the low numbered frets.

Also, the tech doing a setup doesn't necessarily mean that the setup will be perfect for you. If the humidity and temperature where you keep your guitar and play it is very different, you may need to do a setup in your environment.
Learning how to do a basic setup is knowledge every guitar player should have, unless they're traveling with a tech. It's not hard to learn or do, and it not only saves money and time, but you get it the way you want it, and for your storage/play environment.
A couple of days after I get the guitar back from any tech or luthier, I do a set-up. Not because they don't do a good job, but because they do it in their workshop, and often before the guitar has had a time to settle after their work.

Just like with tuning or re-stringing, the first couple of times a new student might need assistance from a teacher. But after that, he or she should be comfortable doing it without help. Same with basic set-up: use the help of others until you gain the skill. But learn the skill.

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly and set up a guitar. Specialization is for insects!
- Lazarus Long (Robert A. Heinlein); addition by Y.T.


Well as I said earlier, I have managed to make the action and feel of the guitar considerably closer to how I like it than when I first received the guitar, the action is currently 4mm on the Low E string at the 12th fret, it was probably about 6mm atleast before. The thing is when I get the action low enough for my liking, there is a ridiculous amount of fret buzz and choking going on.

All my guitars are the nicest, slinkiest, lowest action guitars I've ever played on (never played a guitar better than my strat before the refret, and my Epiphone Les Paul plays like a dream, my Ibanez RG was an amazing player, but then I got it refinished and after getting it back the action could not be set as low without buzzing and I gave up tinkering it after a few days, although I will return once I get new strings on it).

Will let you guys know on Sat/Sun when I get the guitar back how it went. Thanks again!


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