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Post subject: Re: Made in China
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:28 pm
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Some time ago, while visiting my daughter in the mid-west , my son-in-law borrowed an LP model from a friend. He had purchased it from Chinese source over the internet. Though, it had all the markings of a Gibson, including "Made In USA", it was a fake. I was surprised at how good the neck/fret board felt, and overall, how it was constructed. The controls felt smooth. The one noticeable issue was the gold finish, which was turning (tarnishing). He had paid a fraction of what a comparable Gibson or even, Epiphone. At the time the friend was in need of money, and wanted to sell it. Even at the price he was asking, I felt I could not really enjoy owning it, knowing it's pedigree and the implications of the business that produced it. My Karma at play here.

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Post subject: Re: Made in China
Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:41 am
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I don't see it as a danger to the industry. We've had guitars made in the far east encroaching on the names of the big boys since the 60's.
While you could argue their production is greater than before, so is manufacture of the real deals. People still see through them, are left feeling dissatisfied and that they'll never go back to them.

Yeah it's wrong, yeah they're ornaments rather than instruments. The same could have been said of the likes of Rose Morris in the 70's. I really don't see them as being a danger to instrument makers though unless these factories really improve their produce. And if they do, then that is only a good thing for us, the player.

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Post subject: Re: Made in China
Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:35 pm
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nikininja wrote:
I don't see it as a danger to the industry. We've had guitars made in the far east encroaching on the names of the big boys since the 60's.
While you could argue their production is greater than before, so is manufacture of the real deals. People still see through them, are left feeling dissatisfied and that they'll never go back to them.

Yeah it's wrong, yeah they're ornaments rather than instruments. The same could have been said of the likes of Rose Morris in the 70's. I really don't see them as being a danger to instrument makers though unless these factories really improve their produce. And if they do, then that is only a good thing for us, the player.


But the major issue I have is that they are fraudulent representations of something they are not, since they bear the logos and names of the original manufacturer, which is not who produced them. Including those (if not all) marked as being "Made in USA", which they are not. That violates US import law. They are being sold as something they are not.

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Post subject: Re: Made in China
Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:02 am
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Lenny, that happens anyway, you'll never stop that. And how far do you go with it?
Stopping ebay shops such as Stratosphere? That potentially give anyone the option to do the same. Make a guitar that wasn't produced by Fender, yet bares the Fender name. Indistinguishable from the real thing. Which OK some could argue they are, the quality certainly is achievable using parts from Fender guitars. But essentially the guitar would not have been made by Fender.
That just harms us all. I for one am waiting for a white LP custom body and neck to come up. Just so I can put all the parts from my 72 custom on it. And finally be free of the pancake body and 3 piece neck.
If you're going to enforce that law, to that degree, then all those partscasters become illegal.
Some excellent instruments would never happen. One of my faves is a Mexican Strat neck on a Jackson Dinky body.

I've worked on three of those guitars now. Two Les Pauls and a Telecaster. Trust me, you would never mistake them for the real thing. The owners of all three ultimately felt they'd wasted their money and that they'd be better off never having bought the thing and saving for the real thing. One of those owners had me put in a Duncan AP2 in his LP. I explained that the guitar would still sound terrible because the inherent poor quality caused the thing to play so badly, you'd never get a good sound from it. Lo and behold, he was back 3 weeks later.
You'd lose the excellent stuff such as Tokai and Burny because of those? Which would be the ultimate outcome were such a vigorous enforcement of US law possible?

BTW nice dog in the profile pic. Samoyed?

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Post subject: Re: Made in China
Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:43 am
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Nikininja, I think you are comparing apples to turnips. The Chinese fakes are made to deceive. What Stratosphere does is a entirely different horse. Really not much Different than Fender selling necks and bodies and pickups. If you bought these directly from Fender which you can., are you saying Fender is selling fake strats and teles. As to Tokai and the rest, they were never made to deceive people into thinking the were buying the real deal. Copies yes, fakes no.


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Post subject: Re: Made in China
Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:57 am
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I agree. Stratosphere sells Fender (and other) components. They are legitimate parts, manufactured by Fender with Fender serial numbers. I accept you could put a MiA neck on a MiM body, etc. Assuming you don't then try to pass off the Partscaster as something it isn't there's no harm done.

Again, legitimate companies have made guitars in the style of the Stratocaster for 50+ years. Assuming they put their name on the headstock and don't pretend it is something it isn't a buyer isn't confused by its origin.

The Chinese fake is a completely different kettle of fish. They are built with the sole intention of making a buyer think they are something else. The original buyer may know it is a fake. Even this should not be encouraged as, while they may not intend to pass the guitar in deception, who is to say their Estate may be innocently involved in deception after the persons death.

Personally I think such things should be destroyed on sight.

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Post subject: Re: Made in China
Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:10 am
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nikininja wrote:

BTW nice dog in the profile pic. Samoyed?


An American Eskimo....

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Am Std 60th Ann Comm
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Post subject: Re: Made in China
Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:22 am
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I was only expressing my "personal" opinion as to what I consider deceptive business practice. I have no issue with the source country of foreign made goods. But the issue is with respect to a manufacturer's product being "counterfeited" and boldly advertised and sold as something it is not. Their business practice is the intent to deceive and make a profit off of a known manufacturer's design, name, and reputation.

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It's a good day, I woke up, again...

Am Std 60th Ann Comm
Am Special
USA Prof HSS
2001 MIM Std
Epiphone Std Plustop PRO
Tele AmOrig 50's
Tele Elite
Takamine Acoustic/Electric EG-531S
Blueridge Acoustic/Electric BR-J33CEO


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Post subject: Re: Made in China
Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:33 am
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Right now there is a fake chi-com LP on MPLS CL. Someone called the seller out for selling a fake pointed out what was wrong and posted a picture of another with the same serial number. There was another selling a Am Std strat for 550usd that was clearly a partscaster. We both called him out on that and now it's listed as a partscaster with Am std neck and unknown body make(yeah sure) for 250usd and I'm not to sure about the neck.


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Post subject: Re: Made in China
Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:44 am
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Minnesotastrats wrote:
Right now there is a fake chi-com LP on MPLS CL. Someone called the seller out for selling a fake pointed out what was wrong and posted a picture of another with the same serial number. There was another selling a Am Std strat for 550usd that was clearly a partscaster. We both called him out on that and now it's listed as a partscaster with Am std neck and unknown body make(yeah sure) for 250usd and I'm not to sure about the neck.


:evil: That's just wrong passing off fakes :twisted:
Happy that they were busted by you guys :wink:
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Post subject: Re: Made in China
Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:03 pm
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Minnesotastrats wrote:
Nikininja, I think you are comparing apples to turnips. The Chinese fakes are made to deceive. What Stratosphere does is a entirely different horse. Really not much Different than Fender selling necks and bodies and pickups. If you bought these directly from Fender which you can., are you saying Fender is selling fake strats and teles. As to Tokai and the rest, they were never made to deceive people into thinking the were buying the real deal. Copies yes, fakes no.



I don't see it as any different, I really don't. I seriously doubt Stratosphere are buying directly from Fender. So much that I will only believe that when I see a Fender representative say on these boards that they are.
Far more likely they're buying bulk from some warehouse.
They were doing it way before Fender started selling bodies and necks to the public, this time round.

Take those Japanese manufacturers. A lot of those guitars are built in the same factory as Fender Japan guitars. So what is the difference? They come off the same tooling, using the same CNC program. The decal is the work of minutes to anyone with half a hand.
You could put a Fender decal on them and essentially have a Fender Japan guitar. How would that be?

I stand by what I said, if it doesn't leave the factory as a complete instrument, it's a partscaster, essentially a fake. Something claiming to be what it isn't.

I really don't have a problem with fakes or legitimate far east competition. It saved Fender as a brand name before. Both Fender and Gibson need it as a reminder to not get sloppy. Both companies are shackled to their history. They can't produce new ideas, they're rejected by the guitar buying public. If either produce anything that isn't mostly what they produced 50 years ago, it won't sell. So we need those legitimate companies to keep ideas rolling in. Ask yourselves, what innovation of significance to the guitar has happened since The Stratocaster. I can't think of anything. Nothing so new, so revolutionary. Even the Floyd Rose/ Kahler trem is just a progression of the Synchronised trem. Active pickups a progression of passive pickups.

As I said previously I don't see the Chinese ornaments as a problem. That is all they're good for, wall decoration. Anyone that can play doesn't want to handle one for long. And anyone that can't play is unlikely to go to the trouble of finding one of those out, waiting for the shipping. Rather then go down the street and buy a Squier or an Epiphone.
The three I've seen were owned by capable players that were too aware that they were not good enough.

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Post subject: Re: Made in China
Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:32 pm
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I will happily agree to disagree, I have a Chicom 335. When I bought it they gave me 3 choices for the logo on the headstock. 1.) nothing, 2.) there company name Grote o, or 3.) my name for 30 bucks. I went with 3. Yeah I upgraded the pickups To epi 57 classics, the pots to CTS and the switches to Switchcraft. Had my guitar tech make a bone nut from scratch. When all was said and done it played at least as nice as a high end epi. Even my tech was impressed! No one will mistake it for the real deal or a fake. Yeah, I have as much into it as a high end epi but it's got my name on it so it is a rare brand. :lol:


Last edited by Minnesotastrats on Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Made in China
Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:44 pm
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nikininja wrote:
I don't see it as any different, I really don't.
(...)
it's a partscaster, essentially a fake

I strongly disagree with that - a Partscaster (as in: a guitar made from Fender parts, plus possibly modded with hardware/electronics from some other manufacturers) is very different from a counterfeit guitar. Like, I would never call Clapton's Blackie a fake. :wink:
nikininja wrote:
Take those Japanese manufacturers. A lot of those guitars are built in the same factory as Fender Japan guitars. So what is the difference? They come off the same tooling, using the same CNC program. The decal is the work of minutes to anyone with half a hand.
You could put a Fender decal on them and essentially have a Fender Japan guitar. How would that be?

Which Japanese manufacturers of today are you talking about?

nikininja wrote:
The three I've seen were owned by capable players that were too aware that they were not good enough.

But: the damage has been done, the counterfeiters got their money...


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Post subject: Re: Made in China
Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:46 pm
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My Chinese ornament......[imgImage][/img]


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Post subject: Re: Made in China
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:47 am
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Fender have a brand image based on 70(?) years hard graft through thick and thin. A new buyer might pick up a fake, think "This Fender is rubbish" and never consider another.

Chinese guitars aren't necessarily bad (my Chinese made Fender acoustic is great - for the price) it is the fraudulent selling of fakes which is wrong.

Stratosphere are unlikely to (knowingly) sell fake parts as they also have a reputation to guard.

To consider a manufacturer can rebrand and sell components which they produce for Fender is a nonsense. I am sure Fenders lawyers have contract documents which would obliterate any supplier which stepped outside of their agreement. And why would you risk loosing a Client to flog off a few cheap guitar parts?

At what point does a factory made Stratocaster become bad then? Can you change the strings? Can you change the pick guard, or PUPs or knobs (all of which Fender sell)? If you break the body can you replace it or do you have to throw the whole guitar away?

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