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Post subject: Re: Why no headphone jack?
Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:57 pm
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strayedstrater wrote:
Pics of the circuit boards show an empty rectangular jack outline with through-holes and traces (labeled J703) between the XLR pot and power level rotary switch.

Speculation is that they designed it to have a headphone jack, then changed their minds about implementing it. Or designed it into the board for future upgrades.


As I speculated, only about five bucks' worth of parts. Even assuming a 400% mark-up for this added convenience (not altogether inappropriate) that's only twenty dollars, which still keeps the amp's MSRP pretty reasonable given its myriad of useful capabilities. And it's much more user-friendly than the toys offered in Fender's GT line.

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Post subject: Re: Why no headphone jack?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:14 am
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I don't think it was about cost or profit margin.

When these were introduced, there were sceptics. Died in the wool tube guys who dismissed them as disposable digital trash. Arjay, you were pretty blunt in that early TM thread.

Extra features ran the risk of alienating more people. People who would think "they couldn't possibly have captured the sound, so they polished turds by adding gimmicks".

I think they made a reasonable call in reigning back the temptation to add stuff. Establish the new category of "digital replicas of classic amps", get people to accept and embrace them as worthy competitors to the originals.

Get people to accept the premise first. Then down the road, maybe start adding new features.
-----------------
Or, maybe it occurred to them that lot of people love to modify amps. Can't roll tubes, can't do Fromel mods -- all the TM's sound identical and there's nothing you can do to make them unique. Maybe they put the jack footprint in there to allow/encourage user/aftermarket mods. Might be some other Easter eggs hiding on the boards.


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Post subject: Re: Why no headphone jack?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:36 am
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strayedstrater wrote:
Arjay, you were pretty blunt in that early TM thread.

Guilty as charged, sir.

But that was before the video demo's became available. I watched them all several times and revised my opinion accordingly. The TM's are not perfect (that is, they don't sound exactly like their tube counterparts) but they sound close enough to satisfy most players. And they're much more intuitive than those flimsy modeling amps that Fender will abandon a few years from now just as with the "FUSE" fiasco. IMO adding a headphone jack will enhance an already-promising new platform and strengthen Fender's marketing position.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Why no headphone jack?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:26 pm
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strayedstrater wrote:
Pics of the circuit boards show an empty rectangular jack outline with through-holes and traces (labeled J703) between the XLR pot and power level rotary switch.

Speculation is that they designed it to have a headphone jack, then changed their minds about implementing it. Or designed it into the board for future upgrades.


Can you provide said pictures?

Retroverbial wrote:
As I speculated, only about five bucks' worth of parts. Even assuming a 400% mark-up for this added convenience (not altogether inappropriate) that's only twenty dollars, which still keeps the amp's MSRP pretty reasonable given its myriad of useful capabilities. And it's much more user-friendly than the toys offered in Fender's GT line.
Arjay


So how does Fender account for the $100 price difference between a Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb and a Tonemaster Twin Reverb?

For $100 you get an additional speaker, 2 mid controls, 2 bright switches, and tilt back legs.

Either they are over-charging for a Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb, or they are under-charging for a Tonemaster Twin Reverb.

Caveat Emptor.

No one from Fender has assuaged my concerns that 10 years from now, parts will be available.
In fact, no one from Fender has assuaged my concerns how quickly a warranty claim will be addressed. Will they repair it, or replace it? It's been weeks since either of them have been available on Fender's website.
Electronics assembled in China, and cabinet, knobs, etc. assembled in Mexico.
If I had a warranty claim, how long would I have to wait? If I lived in the UK or Australia how much longer would I have to wait?
If I lived in some other part of the world, how much even longer would I have to wait? Could I expect some kind of eventual resolution?

Don't get me wrong, I'm a capitalist. But it doesn't mean I think you can leave your customers in the lurch because they don't live in a part of the world that's convenient for you or because you haven't planned ahead.

JMHO,


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Post subject: Re: Why no headphone jack?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:57 pm
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You're forgetting the power-amp module, vinyl......20 watts in the DR vs 80 watts in the TR. That has to figure into the cost as well. IMO the hundred-dollar price differential between the two models seems equitable.

I too share your concerns about the reliability and logistical supportibility of these amps. But on the face of it, it seems that Fender has hit a triple, maybe even a homer. Time will tell I guess.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Why no headphone jack?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:52 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
You're forgetting the power-amp module, vinyl......20 watts in the DR vs 80 watts in the TR. That has to figure into the cost as well. IMO the hundred-dollar price differential between the two models seems equitable.

I too share your concerns about the reliability and logistical supportibility of these amps. But on the face of it, it seems that Fender has hit a triple, maybe even a homer. Time will tell I guess.

Arjay


Don't get me wrong, I hope Fender has hit a homer. Like you said, "time will tell".

Besides being a "capitalist" I can be "nostalgic". Not much makes me happier than the Fender of the early 60's.

Regards,


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Post subject: Re: Why no headphone jack?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:48 pm
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vinyl wrote:
Not much makes me happier than the Fender of the early 60's.

+1

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Why no headphone jack?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:51 pm
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Posting from my phone and it always fights me with links. Especially on this site.

Do a Google image search for "tonemaster circuit boards". I think the original thread was on vguitar forum, but the pics have spread to TGP and others.

They're much nicer computers than the Mustangs. Almost Fractal quality.


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Post subject: Re: Why no headphone jack?
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:03 pm
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I got a look at the TM chassis and I like most of what I see.
The power module is a stock Ice Power 200AS1 unit. They are uber clean, quiet, reliable, and replaceable. There are also 2 channel versions that will fit if you want. There is an amp protect light available on the module. It there one on the amp?
It will go down to 2.7 ohms output and is rated 210 watts. But it won't do it continuously. At full power, it will run 800 seconds before thermal shutdown. It will put out 140 watts continuously without shutdown. Now there's a goal for you ear bleeders.
The power scaling is just a preamp control. There is no throttling going on in the amp module.
You might be able to add a HP jack, but it looks like an oddball pyhsical layout. It needs a couple caps too. But there might not be enough gain there to run headphones at a high enough volume. You will also have to trigger the mute pin on the ice module to turn off the speaker.
The input preamp ICs have low voltage caps surrounding them. The module can supply 17 vdc rails, but I don't see any evidence more than 6 makes it to the input ics. This limits the speed of the op amps. It looks like they are good TI chips, but there is still some cheap JRC on board as well.
The connectors look good. Most of the flat cables have digital signals, but they are generally more reliable than Molex types.
The only issue that I can see as a possible problem is the 33/50 volt caps on the line out. When it is plugged into a mixer with 48 volt phantom power, there's not much headroom left to add audio voltages without exceeding the voltage spec. 63 volt caps would be safer.
Does it have what it takes to sound good? Yes. Does it sound like the original? Well, the ice is going to be hifi perfect. The push pull transformer cancels the first even harmonic, as I understand it. This would make the fundamental frequency of the note more dominant over the harmonics. An effect not present in the ice. Unless they can figure out how to mimic that with software....
I would like to measure the latency of the TM. It is certainly more than the original, measures in milliseconds, not phase delay. This should make a big difference in the feedback characteristics of the two amps. Set the controls the same and the original should be more responsive to playing the guitar near the speaker to achieve sustain. It might freak out the TM.
You boys have fun with your toys.


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Post subject: Re: Why no headphone jack?
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:23 am
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TimsAudio wrote:
The power scaling is just a preamp control. There is no throttling going on in the amp module.

So any breakup we are hearing is modeled, and not actual component clipping?

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Post subject: Re: Why no headphone jack?
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:37 am
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That's how I'm reading it, Rich.

Not necessarily a bad thing though.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Why no headphone jack?
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:29 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
That's how I'm reading it, Rich.

Not necessarily a bad thing though.

Arjay

Yep... would tend to hold a more true tone when attenuated, at least until you get to the point that you simply aren't driving the speaker.

Which is where there may be a market for a Tonemaster Champ.... or at least a 1x8 cabinet to plug the DR into.

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Post subject: Re: Why no headphone jack?
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:11 pm
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CB91710 wrote:
Which is where there may be a market for a Tonemaster Champ.... or at least a 1x8 cabinet to plug the DR into.

Even Fender wouldn't be too keen on reinventing the wheel. Are you aware of Roland's Cube10GX?

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Why no headphone jack?
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:20 pm
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This has always been my big gripe as well. It seems like it would be easy enough to put something like this on here. I've had to resort to using a pedal which ok. I guess. I'd rather be able to go straight into the amp though.


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Post subject: Re: Why no headphone jack?
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:17 am
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Speaker breakup is a field where I am experientially ignorant.
Retro has tried to explain it to me, but other sources as well attribute breakup to the speaker itself. So no, I don't think the breakup is modeled.
The speaker question I have is whether the speaker is designed for HiFi or guitar. How does it sound with different speakers. Problem is that you need a powerful = expensive, speaker for the experiment.


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