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Post subject: Re: Well i'll be da##ed ! (dropout issue possible fix)
Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:21 pm
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Hobbyist
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Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:25 pm
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I personally think a beefier heatsink with quality compound is the way to go if modding. Otherwise I would definitely look into a simple AC solution. The only reason I went with a wall wart modded fan was I had the fan and box of warts laying around.


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Post subject: Re: Well i'll be da##ed ! (dropout issue possible fix)
Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:25 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:53 pm
Posts: 972
I've been thinking about it and i gotta try a fan and i'll tell you why. The dropout issue is the CPU getting much too hot. But what about when it's hotter then optimal but just not enough to cause dropouts? Heres what i'm getting at. I have had many tonal issues in the past where the amp sounds a lo0t different at times. And no, i'm not talking about the common phenomenon of our ears just hearing different or other external things we deal with. I'm thinking what those tonal issue are is the CPU running hotter then it should for optimal faultless performance. I tested it today by sticking a digital thermometer between the fins and waiting till the temp stabilized. They i tried several metal objects on the HS to see how much i could drop the temp. I even clamped one of those surgical clamps onto it. The temp never even changed. But i KNOW from my experiment with that little house fan that it works quickly to bring the temp down enough to stop that issue. A fan is going to bring the CPU to a much more optimal temp IMO, especially when i could not even note a temp change playing with HS solutions. I wasn't expecting miracles but i at least expected degree or 3, which then would tell me a more permanent and well thought out extension of the finds might do well. PCs use numerous fans to cool several things. I really think this is the way to go to not only make the amp stop cutting out but to stabilize the tone. When this amp sounds it's best it's a truly great amp and i gotta try this t see if it makes it consistent. Because the tonal issues have always plagued me more then the dropouts. To tell u the truth, I'd actually rather live with the dropout issue happening occasionally than the tonal issues !

By the way, i don't know why this never occurred to me before, but rather then pulling the chassis theres a way to get to the guts in a way that gives some access at least.....just remove the handle ! Thats how i tested the HS and temps today and thats how i will test the fan. I'll set a 120v fan in it thru that opening and if it seems to stabilize all issues with the amp and adds no noise i'll find the most optimal position by testing with that digital thermometer and once i find that i'lln pull the chassis and mount it permanently and hook it up to the switched mains.


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Post subject: Re: Well i'll be da##ed ! (dropout issue possible fix)
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:08 am
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Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:25 pm
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If you are having issues with it sounding different and have the fan on it already I would bet some cables are jarring on their board headers. If I take mine apart later I will chopstick some of those connections. I know I had an ID:core 20w that had that issue. I ended up hot gluing the connections on that unit and never had another issue with sound changing. It might not even be the CPU overheating and could be elsewhere on the board. Could simply be heat causing headers/connections to do what they use to call chip creep. Chip creep use to be a big issue with older PC's when they had chips that would fit down in sockets. Heating up then cooling down or shrinking and extracting would eventually cause chips to work their way out of the sockets. Heating/Cooling could be the cause of the cutouts as well I suppose causing ribbon or cable connectors to become loose or poorly connected. I doubt it is chip creep on an actual chip/socket as you rarely see those these days. It is just the term I know to explain the heating/cooling shrinking/expanding issue. Also being an amp you would also have to take into account sound alone could jar connections loose as well. Then on top of that heating/cooling.

The fan clamped on the bottom of the amp facing up seems to keep it from cutting out for me thankfully and doesn't require any modding. I haven't had the sound changing on me that I have noticed at least yet. I will connect my Ditto looper later and do some light chopsticking to see if I notice any changing of the sound. I am not ready to do anything that would void warranty yet so don't want to break any tamper paint etc.


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Post subject: Re: Well i'll be da##ed ! (dropout issue possible fix)
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:46 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:53 pm
Posts: 972
No, i don't have a fan on it. I only did that once when it was dropping out to see if it stopped it which it did. But i didn't leave the fan on it. As to the connections, if you read all mu posts on this amps issue i posted about the connections in the amp already. I hardwire bypassed all the pins on 2 multi pin (18 pin i think) connectors. One is to the footswitch board and that completely fixed the freezing issue the FS had till i did that about 6-8 months ago. The other was to the send/return board and did nothing to help the dropouts obviously nor the tonal issue. And thats another reason for the fan....as u said it's not necessarily the CPU itself, there are other non heat sinked chips. So a fan is really in order. In fact, i was just looking for one locally when i checked in here just now. Tons of them on ebay but i'd like to find one locally today if i could.

As to chopsticking, i had the chassis out and did that for about 30 minutes one day and could not induce any issues at all. Like all amps with tons of internal connectors they will almost ALL fail to one degree of another at some point, and not unusual at all to happen from new. The connectors in this thing are not good, but the two biggest and most important ones are the worse by far. These are the 2 cable-less board to board plug in connectors i mentioned bypassing. But so far it seems only one issue was caused by these, the footswitch issue. The rest i now believe are heat related. No wonder chopsticking the heck out of the thing revealed nothing.

As to the chip in these, they don't appear to be socketed so creep is a non issue.


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Post subject: Re: Well i'll be da##ed ! (dropout issue possible fix)
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:07 am
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Hobbyist
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Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:25 pm
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The chip creep term I used loosely and was referring to connections in general become loose over time due to heating/cooling. I haven't had the footswitch issue yet but am glad you found a solution and will keep this stored in the old gray matter should it ever come up. Things have been pretty busy with work so haven't' had time to delve deeper. Sounds like it might be a moot point though going from your experiences. Do definitely let us know how the fan project goes and what you end up doing, quite interested to see how it turns out. Hopefully can take some pics as well to share :)


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Post subject: Re: Well i'll be da##ed ! (dropout issue possible fix)
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:23 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:53 pm
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Definately, i will post the results, tho i gotta say that i took the chassis out about a week ago and after that for some reason it hasn't done it. So results may not be telling till i have run it for a while before i put the fan in and see if it's recent change to being a daily event has for some reason gone back to monthly or even not at all. Strange.

Anyways, i will put a fan in it never the less and I may order it on ebay from china, as they are dirt cheap. So it may be a while before i even get to it. I also am not done looking locally yet, tho so far they are either much too big or too much $.


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Post subject: Re: Well i'll be da##ed ! (dropout issue possible fix)
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:35 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:53 pm
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I got a 115v fan and it causes no noise at all, so thats good. At the moment i just wired a cable to it and plugged it into the mains and set it in front of the CPU via the handle opening in the top just temporarily. I'm not sure if i want to mount it there tho. I wonder if it may be better to mount it under the chassis on the wood board that seperates the chassis from the speaker and have it draw hot air out of the chassis or cool air into it. I imagine blowing on the CPU board may be best, but on the other hand for all we know it could be something else which may make using it as general chassis cooling best. Once i come to a conclusion i will mount it.


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Post subject: Re: Well i'll be da##ed ! (dropout issue possible fix)
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:44 pm
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Professional Musician
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Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:46 pm
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Pretty sure you're on top of it but regarding fan placement, computers usually have at least 2 fans. One to blow straight into the processor and another mounted to the outside of the case that blows hot air out. For systems that run really hot, sometimes you see 2 external fans. One blows in and the other blows out. It's important to make sure you plug up any "holes" so the air can flow properly. The only clear way for air to get in or out should be the fans. In very extreme cases (overclocked CPUs), some computers are liquid cooled. It works better but if you ever spring a leak, the results can be catastrophic. Just a couple of thoughts from the computer tech side of things.


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Post subject: Re: Well i'll be da##ed ! (dropout issue possible fix)
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:04 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Oh, i know. My PC has in/out fans but i'm not going that far. One fan should be enough but i'm not sure the most efficient way to do it. If i knew it was the CPU i'd simply point it right at that. The chassis cooling idea comes from the thought that what if it's NOT the CPU or not even on that board. After all, the house fan stopped the issue but didn't tell me anything about what part was responsible. It was just pointed at the rear panel. But with a lot more air than this tiny cooling fan, so this must be done right or i can't be sure it;s going to work.


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Post subject: Re: Well i'll be da##ed ! (dropout issue possible fix)
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:30 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:53 pm
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Just got done installing it. Put a switch in too so i don't hacve to use it all the time. At home it's not that big a deal and if it works as well as it did pointing a house fan at the rear of the amp i can just switch it on if it drops out or i hear tonal changes and see if like the house fan it gradually stops. I positioned it so it is at an angle that still allows it to hit the CPU board full force but also puts a good amount of air onto the power supply too. It will take time to really see any benefits but i will report on whatever i do find.


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Post subject: Re: Well i'll be da##ed ! (dropout issue possible fix)
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:16 pm
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Roadie
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Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:19 pm
Posts: 270
Maybe drill some vent holes in the case right above the heat?


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Post subject: Re: Well i'll be da##ed ! (dropout issue possible fix)
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:31 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:53 pm
Posts: 972
It has vents there already.


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