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Post subject: Future of the GT?
Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:11 pm
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Yeah, I'm on a posting roll tonight.

So I thought that I'd share my experiences so far. I started out with the original GDEC and thought that it was cool, but digital-sounding, but I didn't mind that because it filled a niche for my needs, like when I left home for a vacation spot and wanted something to play.

The GDEC3/30 took it way up a notch and I embraced the Fuse software and spent considerable time dialing in presets and adding backing tracks for practicing fun.

I have a Marshall DSL40C, Kustom Coupe 72, Egnater Tweaker 15, and a Vox AC10, plus about 40 production and self-built DIY pedals to do all of that stuff... but I'd usually start a practice session on the 3/30 tuning up and playing a few things before using one of my other amps -- but many times I just stayed on the 3/30.

So when I walked into GC with a manager's coupon one day and saw the GT200 on the floor, I snapped it up thinking that this has to be the next Big Thing, especially since I skipped all of the Mustangs in between, right? I didn't even take the time to try it out first. Upon playing it at home, I found that much was muffled and lacked bite, even after using global eq. --And I thought...darn, I might have a dud on my hands.

So I wanted to ask all of you Fender people, and this is taking into account watching videos on that manager-guy and Reinhold make it sound un-flawed, this amp allegedly has a latest-gen sound processing chip(s), what do you all have planned to tweak the firmware? I know that many have groused about the phone-control stuff, but I care much more about the actual tone. The effects seem great, but the amp/cab choices are nasty.

(btw, I'm a software dev in SSIS/MVC in a high-pressure "agile" shop)

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Post subject: Re: Future of the GT?
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:03 am
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For the future of the gt range take a look in the mustang and fuse forums . Once you buy your on your own they dont give a $@!& .I'll say it again fender don't do software . great guitars though...


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Post subject: Re: Future of the GT?
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:21 am
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The folks at Fender Digital are very well aware of the shortcomings of the Version 1 firmware and Tone app and I can assure you that these are being addressed as we speak. We have been promised a firmware update with bug fixes and new features in 'a few weeks'. They have hired new staff to bring the Android version of Tone up to par with iOS. Version 1 of ANY software product will have issues and the developers depend on feedback from customers to prioritise improvements. So, don't expect them to pick up complaints from web forums, contact them directly here - https://support.fender.com/hc/en-us/sec ... 5000400423 by phone or web form (Submit a request, top right of the page). I have found them most helpful, personally.


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Post subject: Re: Future of the GT?
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:32 am
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stratocaster1983 wrote:
The folks at Fender Digital are very well aware of the shortcomings of the Version 1 firmware and Tone app and I can assure you that these are being addressed as we speak. We have been promised a firmware update with bug fixes and new features in 'a few weeks'. They have hired new staff to bring the Android version of Tone up to par with iOS.

none of that is going to improve the sound of the amp.

The "muffled and lacked bite" description sounds an awful lot like what I don't like about Line 6 modeling. All of the Line 6 products sound "distant" "muffled" and "over-processed" to my ears. That's why I liked the Fender Mustang series so much, it's the total opposite. Sounds more like a real amp to me.

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Post subject: Re: Future of the GT?
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:42 am
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I see the GT as having a very bright future. My GT100 displays exactly NONE of the muffled sound or lack of bite or phase issues or anything thats been mentioned to date. In fact, it has FAR more bite and it LESS muffled than my MIII. So why do i say it has a bright future if others DO hear those things? Because i'm positive that the reasons they do will all come full circle with updates and with more and more people getting great tones out of them and other slowly coming around. It will all evolve in time, and in fact i already see it changing. I've seen this many times with many products, not just music gear. Fender made some mistakes on release but they are fixing them and relatively quickly with a 4th update coming soon that adds some features we've been asking for and more fixes, and the amp has only been out around a month. I have MIII and trust me, the GT is so far tonally superior theres no contest. But i an not, i repeat, NOT saying that those who hear these things like muffled sound are not hearing them. I'm sure they are, but there are reasons for that some of which i'm sure of and some speculation that will soon be out of the picture. Mark my words. In time, a relatively short time the GT will be more popular and respected then the MIII ever was. I'm very picky about tone and the GT 100 is very capable and the other 2 models i believe will soon be too once the stereo system bugs are worked out. I loved my MIII, but to be honest there was exactly ONE model i used and liked. The rest were not good enough for me to want to use that amp. Most were to my ear unusable. So far with the GT i haven't spent much time at all with all the models, but the 5 or 6 i have are all not only usable but great and with the GT unlike the MIII i will be using a number of models instead of one. As to muffled and lacking brightness.....those who say that have NOT heard a properly working and well adjusted GT100, thats all there is to it. Whatever the reason Its laughable to me given what mine is putting out. No one on the planet would listen to mine at least and suggest it's muffled or dark, especially compared to the MIII.

Give it time and mark my words, and don't forget the old mustang wasn't well received either but then became fender's best selling amp line and well respected one all the forums. Those who experienced sounds that have been described will never believe a word i say. But 10 seconds plugged into MY GT100 would makes you change your tune. There are always some who won't like every piece of gear out there no matter how popular and some therefore still may not like the GT after playing mine, but theres not a chance on earth they'd come away thinking it sounded muffled or lacked bite/brightness unless they have ear damage. There are issues that are not tone related and those are being addressed as we speak. Feature wise it will likely never be quite as good to some as the old one. But in the end tone is the major issue and that will change as the reasons some like myself have great sounds happening and others don't start to change for any number of reasons. So IMO the GT's future won't even remotely resemble the GT today. I have already seen a big change on other forums and it's just the beginning.


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Post subject: Re: Future of the GT?
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:55 am
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oczad wrote:
So why do i say it has a bright future if others DO hear those things? Because i'm positive that the reasons they do will all come full circle with updates and with more and more people getting great tones out of them and other slowly coming around.

What if it's a hardware issue? You can update it until you're blue in the face, but that won't solve a hardware problem. And Fender doesn't exactly have a great track record with that (they were 1 for 2 with the Mustang series already. Now these seem "iffy"). I'm just glad all you guys stepped up with cash in hand to "beta test" the GT series. It has already brought a few things to light.

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Post subject: Re: Future of the GT?
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:19 am
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Hardware is the only thing that my experience says is NOT the issue. All the other things cannot be proven but if there was a hardware issue ALL GTs would be dark/muffled/recorded sounding/etc etc. I can confirm beyond a shadow of a doubt there ARE firmware issues because i have had them and seen updates fix them and at other times NOT fix them. I had mine looked at by fender then returned only to have one of the bugs reappear and then the amp replaced under warranty. So there are firmware issues and they are getting them sorted and they are w/o a doubt responsible for some things that we're hearing about. I even had one tonal issue due to firmware, tho not the muffled thing. Thats one of the definite issues that are being worked on now, the unreliable nature of updating. This for me has led to several reoccurring issues that finally took on a restore, update. One even being a tone issue. But hardware would not allow ANY GT to sound like mine if that were the reason, and contrary to all the naysayers here there are plenty of people who are not having the problems. One guy even posted a clip at TGP that had several people praising the sound in that clip and being puzzled at how it could so so good given these other negative posts.

Like i said, guys like you aren't going to believe anything i say but in time some of you will se more proof, fixes, and eventually come to see the light and even own one. It will happen if what i'm hearing in mine is real, and it is.


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Post subject: Re: Future of the GT?
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:31 am
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From what I see, the biggest issues, as described above, relate to the 40 and 200 models which are supposed to have 'stereo'. The speakers are much too close together to have true stereophonic sound. What these amps are doing, and VOX have the feature in their new Adio Air GT amplifier too, but switchable. They call it 'Acoustage' and it is an attempt to create a wide stereo image from two speakers that are close together. I've seen the feature in 'Boom Boxes' in the past. It is done by manipulating the relative phase of the two speakers. Now, I have a GT-100, so I don't have the problem at all. I am going to suggest to Fender that they make the effect 'switchable', in effect, switching to MONO so that the two speakers are always phase locked. I think that that will solve that problem.


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Post subject: Re: Future of the GT?
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:38 am
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I agree, and i said that just the other day at one of the forums if not here. Even mentioned they should have made it switchable like you. Everyone with these issues are talking about the GT40 or GT200 and i see none by GT100 owners so i have little doubt fender was going for a big stereo sound but didn;t anticipate the reaction or potential for phase issues. I used to run stereo using a delay set for 20 to 40ms with wet signal only going to the second amp and it creates a huge stereo sound even when the speakers are close, but it also sounds like a recording of a guitar like many cite with the 40 and 200 models. I think fender did something along those lines, or used the same tricks bose used for thier stereos. IMO a guitar amp should be a single power amp and i would have never considered the 200 because of that. If you wanna run stereo you should not be forced to because of your amp, do it on your own accord with a second amp or whatever. But i long ago stopped running stereo because it really does do things to your tone that detract from good solid real guitar tone.


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Post subject: Re: Future of the GT?
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:05 am
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Nah... I've seen and heard from others with the GT100 who have experienced some of the issues. I've used a friends GT100 personally and have experienced the same thing with it (as the other two I tested in store).

It is great that you've got one that is awesome and works for you. But my question is... if it is a "software" fix like you mentioned... and yours is working great... do you fear that the software fix that fixes the broken ones will break yours that is working properly? Since the problems seem to be so random (some people like yourself getting excellent copies and others experiencing issues... many the same issues), I have a feeling it isn't quite a software issue but may be more a hardware and/or wiring issue. I've seen claims (though I haven't tested myself so I can't claim if they are true or not) that some have output the GT into the v2 and it fixed all of the tonal issues (but obviously not all of the software and app issues). That definitely doesn't sound like a software issue to me. My friend is going to bring his GT100 over in the coming weeks and we are going to swap out the stock speaker with my old MIIIv2 stock speaker and the Eminence Swamp Thang I currently have installed... double check the wiring during the swamp and see if it makes any difference at all. It may or may not. We'll find out. And when he does, I'll test that whole using the GT as a head and the v2 as a cab to see if there is any merit to that claim. I'll let y'all know whenever we get the chance to test it.


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Post subject: Re: Future of the GT?
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:17 am
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oczad wrote:
Hardware is the only thing that my experience says is NOT the issue. All the other things cannot be proven but if there was a hardware issue ALL GTs would be dark/muffled/recorded sounding/etc etc.

well then I guess your experience doesn't include a v1 Mustang III (or above) amp. They had a hardware issue (power amp) that was present in some but not all of the amps.

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Post subject: Re: Future of the GT?
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:39 pm
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GT owners should do a noise comparison recording, using a well crafted high-gain preset,
recording the 'silence', also recording while moving the guitar up close
and then backing away.

Then record a familiar part by both usb and line,
(use audacity for free) and compare the waveforms side by side,

Test with the available pickup positions, and guitars with different type pickups etc etc.

Not every complainer is a master of gain-staging. There is always more to learn,
especially with a new modeling product, and a wide range of options,
and as many variables not universally shared among owners/testers.

Ozcad has mentioned several important aspects of building tone in the GT.
It's a unique product, and must be learned. Despite the
well known labels of the amps/presets, we have before us a worktable and
a parts bin, containing Fender, and competing companies 'stuff'.
The finished sounds we make will vary wildly, depending on
the skill and imagination of the worker.

People with GT40/200 should hear their actual stereo recording
in quality headphones, or well placed monitors. (not all daws default
to stereo-audio input)

Then import a commercial track, comparing it's waveform
to what you record.

Then record a track using the Harrison Mixbus demo. You'll see
a different looking waveform, than what you see in audacity, or
from a typical daw.

I think The GT40 should have been the GT100 in rack format.
It would have been less expensive to design, and have a wider appeal
in a broader market, than what was released.

And that change is still simple to implement, corporate pride aside.
Cheers


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Post subject: Re: Future of the GT?
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:03 am
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strings10927 wrote:
What if it's a hardware issue? You can update it until you're blue in the face, but that won't solve a hardware problem.


I can only speak about the GT40 and there is most probably no hardware problem. I listened carefully to many excellent mixes via bluetooth streaming and the overall sound quality of those speakers and power amp is excellent for their size and purpose. Note: the proper listening position is very important, but thats true for studio monitors as well.

In some amp presets I hear some unpleasant "fizzyness". But from the above its not the hardware. I assume its more the algorithm of the amp model or the cab sim. And this is software. On the other hand there are already very convincing presets (for a practice amp). So we can exclude a sub-par analog-digital-converter as well.

I am quite happy now is is and looking forward to see (hear!) it getting even better.


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Post subject: Re: Future of the GT?
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:05 pm
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SpinnerDeluxe wrote:
I can only speak about the GT40 and there is most probably no hardware problem. I listened carefully to many excellent mixes via bluetooth streaming and the overall sound quality of those speakers and power amp is excellent for their size and purpose.

Keep in mind that streaming only shows how good it is as a Bluetooth speaker, and says nothing about how good it is as a guitar amp. The frequency range and signal dynamics are different. And if there are problems with the pre-amp section, you won't hear that when streaming, because that is bypassed. I'm not saying that there is something wrong, only that your observation doesn't say anything about how the hardware works as a guitar amp.


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Post subject: Re: Future of the GT?
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:42 pm
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arth1 wrote:
Keep in mind that streaming only shows how good it is as a Bluetooth speaker, and says nothing about how good it is as a guitar amp. The frequency range and signal dynamics are different. And if there are problems with the pre-amp section, you won't hear that when streaming, because that is bypassed. I'm not saying that there is something wrong, only that your observation doesn't say anything about how the hardware works as a guitar amp.


Please accept that this is a digital modelling amp. The only difference in dynamics and frequency range will be the AD-converter after the guitar input jack. And the AD is fine, because there are some very convincing amp models already. Everything of the guitar amp after the AD is digital, hence an emulated software guitar pre-amp will have the same (maximum) frequency range and (maximum) dynamics as the bluetooth audio streaming. Asuming that this is 24 bit and greater 48 kHz there is more than we will ever need.

Both, audio and guitar signal, are summed in a digital mixer before reaching the power amp. We can be sure here, because the latest firmware "added some control knobs" for leveling the volume of the audio stream vs. guitar amp. You see, all software.

I will stay very optimistic. :D


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