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Post subject: Philosophical question?
Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 8:24 am
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If a Mustang GT100 did a perfect emulation of a Fender Twin Reverb, who would pay more than four times as much for the massively heavier amp? (Yes, that's why I got rid of mine!)


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Post subject: Re: Philosophical question?
Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 8:44 am
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stratocaster1983 wrote:
If a Mustang GT100 did a perfect emulation of a Fender Twin Reverb, who would pay more than four times as much for the massively heavier amp? (Yes, that's why I got rid of mine!)


I suppose it's all about what you can afford, and what you can live with. Modeling technology has made leaps and bounds since the early days. For most people they are close enough to the real thing today for much less money. (That's the camp I am in).

My take is the initial market for modeling amps was the hobbyist/home recording enthusiast who just needed some flexibility. Now that the technology has improved, the audience is broader and acceptance is greater. I doubt they will ever eliminate valve amps, but they are getting closer and closer every year to getting that sound down.

My 2 cents :)

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Post subject: Re: Philosophical question?
Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 8:47 am
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Many people buy and use amps just for show. One time I worked with a band that had a huge P.A. system. One day I noticed a bunch of the speaker cabinets were not hooked up.... I asked about this and was told the cabinets were just for show, the club owner wanted the band to look like they were huge. It was only to impress the fans that didn't know any better. If the band came in with a rinky-dink P.A. system, the band would get fired. That's show business.


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Post subject: Re: Philosophical question?
Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 8:51 am
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But, don't you see the dilemma for Fender. If they make the modelling amps too good, they will not sell any 'real' amps. It would seem to be in their interest to not improve the modelling amps too much.


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Post subject: Re: Philosophical question?
Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 8:59 am
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stratocaster1983 wrote:
But, don't you see the dilemma for Fender. If they make the modelling amps too good, they will not sell any 'real' amps. It would seem to be in their interest to not improve the modelling amps too much.


I see your point, but think about it this way. Fender is one of the largest musical equipment companies in the world but they have to continue to innovate to keep up. They do have the luxury of a great legacy line of amps that are still very much in demand, but also need to stay relevant in areas where amp technology is moving. If they have a strong offering in both marketplaces, it's win win for them.

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Post subject: Re: Philosophical question?
Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 10:39 pm
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And it's more than just keeping up with competitors.
Businesses need to study social trends to know
if the kind of people who use their products are declining
or growing in numbers, and adjust product lines with the realities.

From a musicians perspective, there are desires to
preserve and relive history, as well as thrive while playing the current
modern or popular genres, and some always have an ear for innovation,
with creative genious on the loose.

The modeling amps, and the whole virtual amp/fx market, have brought
all of the above mentioned groups an affordable path to excellence,
providing the ability to replicate historic and 'hit' sounds, and also
to create wonderful new ones, and that for a penny on the dollar.
The largest investment will still be musicianship, willfully sacrificing
enough tv/facebook time, and junkfood, to practice, perfect,
and succeed in a chosen arena, be it headphones in a dark room,
or playing for crowds of fans.

I hope Fender keep a product in the $100 price range, so more people
can give it a shot. These amps are great when used with virtual gear,
so a speaker need not be in the box. Those who stick with it,
will have future purchases in mind soon enough.
Cheers


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Post subject: Re: Philosophical question?
Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 1:32 pm
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I have my GT 100 coming Tuesday. I'm excited because I believe Fender will support this platform for a long time, and with continual updates it has the potential to be something really great, even moreso than it already is. I think over time they will refine the modeling and tweak the software to make the GT series a killer amp.

As for the philosophical question, I think it's just nice to have the option of playing through amps that are desirable but financially out of reach. Amp modeling has reached the point now that it is pretty damn close to the original - and with the Kemper and Axe FX II some might argue that they have nailed it- all the way down to the "lesser" affordable options. I've played through a real Deluxe Reverb, and a '57 Tweed Deluxe clone, and while I love those two amps and want to have them they remain out of reach for me at this time. The GT will allow me to play through those two amps among many others also included. And that's good enough for me. Cork-sniffing gear snobs be damned. Will I get rid of my tube amps? Nope.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to Tuesday.


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Post subject: Re: Philosophical question?
Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 1:53 pm
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guildorf wrote:
And it's more than just keeping up with competitors.
Businesses need to study social trends to know
if the kind of people who use their products are declining
or growing in numbers, and adjust product lines with the realities.

From a musicians perspective, there are desires to
preserve and relive history, as well as thrive while playing the current
modern or popular genres, and some always have an ear for innovation,
with creative genious on the loose.

The modeling amps, and the whole virtual amp/fx market, have brought
all of the above mentioned groups an affordable path to excellence,
providing the ability to replicate historic and 'hit' sounds, and also
to create wonderful new ones, and that for a penny on the dollar.
The largest investment will still be musicianship, willfully sacrificing
enough tv/facebook time, and junkfood, to practice, perfect,
and succeed in a chosen arena, be it headphones in a dark room,
or playing for crowds of fans.

I hope Fender keep a product in the $100 price range, so more people
can give it a shot. These amps are great when used with virtual gear,
so a speaker need not be in the box. Those who stick with it,
will have future purchases in mind soon enough.
Cheers



Very well said!

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Post subject: Re: Philosophical question?
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 2:24 am
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ajb1965 wrote:
For most people they are close enough to the real thing today for much less money. (That's the camp I am in).

One thing I read fairly often regarding real/vintage gear, is how much
variance existed in production runs spanning long periods of time.
Chips on a circuit board will be more uniform in output,
and less sensitive to their environments, than aging or
re-issue analog gear.

When a tube or brand-named amp is effected by pedals and racks
both before and after it's output, most of the brand-name-sound
on the salesmans edge, is lost, and the listener just knows it's great sound,
while some musicians may be be self-deceiving regarding how real and authentic
a given tone is, when tone is really more a variable generality,
than an item carved-in-stone. Here are a few of the common variables
that can alter audio examples typically put forth for tone comparisons:

String size, type, and age
Pickup type, brand, and position
The guitars various wood parts
The nut, bridge, and pickup height settings
Cable quality/length
Room accoustics
The rats nest formerly known as micing
Power supply uniformity
Humidity/temperature
Size/type of picks
Strength/skill of the player
The knowledge/skill of the recordist
The mathematics of the recorded signal
The quality of a/d_d/a convertors along the way
Signal modification of streamed/downloaded audio.

There is an element of practical lip-syncing in the tone wars,
which wars get less and less relevant with each new release
of higher quality digital and virtual products.
It's a MARSHALL, I tell you!!!! M-A-R-S-H-A-L-L :roll:

In my case, I only use headphones, I'm not in
a band, and I've no time or interest for doing covers,
so the Mustangs are perfect for me. I need not include
brand-names in my new preset titles, and I'm really happy
with the sound. As will be players with totally different circumstances,
needs, and plans.
Cheers


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Post subject: Re: Philosophical question?
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 3:50 am
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One thing I see starting, are bands that have tube equipment that they use for practice and recording only. When they go out on the road they do not want to lug heavy expensive equipment. So they take modeling equipment and plug into the PA.

Set up is faster and less trouble prone, and because the new equipment is cheaper and lighter you can bring spare's.

I don't think the older players are going to change, they will stay with what is comfortable(Joe Walsh), and that's OK. They have spent a lifetime learning to make music on analog equipment, it's what they know.

Younger people with less money, who want to have all the options available to them will be all over these new amps.

I can't wait to see bands start using VR. How cool will that be? They can do a show in a small club and everybody can watch it, or do a show in a large arena and everybody can watch it. Someday a one chance show could be saved and viewed by anyone. Just think what it would be like to see The Beatle's at Shea stadium, or go to see Woodstock in VR.

Big changes are coming!

8)

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Post subject: Re: Philosophical question?
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:28 am
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stratocaster1983 wrote:
But, don't you see the dilemma for Fender. If they make the modelling amps too good, they will not sell any 'real' amps. It would seem to be in their interest to not improve the modelling amps too much.


Well, if the technology is there and Fender does not do it, another company will step in and do it. In that case it is a lose/lose for Fender.


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Post subject: Re: Philosophical question?
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:00 pm
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omar59 wrote:
I can't wait to see bands start using VR. How cool will that be? They can do a show in a small club and everybody can watch it, or do a show in a large arena and everybody can watch it. Someday a one chance show could be saved and viewed by anyone. Just think what it would be like to see The Beatle's at Shea stadium, or go to see Woodstock in VR.

Think big: what about a VR version of "Guitar Hero" where you get to play in the band. You look to the right, you see John Paul Jones. Look to your left, and you see Robert Plant.

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Post subject: Re: Philosophical question?
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:14 am
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BigBC73 wrote:

As for the philosophical question, I think it's just nice to have the option of playing through amps that are desirable but financially out of reach. Amp modeling has reached the point now that it is pretty damn close to the original - and with the Kemper and Axe FX II some might argue that they have nailed it- all the way down to the "lesser" affordable options. I've played through a real Deluxe Reverb, and a '57 Tweed Deluxe clone, and while I love those two amps and want to have them they remain out of reach for me at this time. The GT will allow me to play through those two amps among many others also included. And that's good enough for me. Cork-sniffing gear snobs be damned. Will I get rid of my tube amps? Nope.


In my sound-proofed basement there is a Kemper with floorboard. Connected to a mixing desk. Connected to some ground shaking JBL EON speakers.

And now I am the proud owner of the GT40 amp which resides next to me in my living room. It has replaced my Roland Cube.

Two pair of shoes. Two different needs. Two different price tags. Real tubes, transistors and modellers and profiler: they all will continue to exist in parallel...


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