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Post subject: Extension Speaker or PA Questions
Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 6:55 am
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I will print and study the owner's manual, but has anyone used the line outs to a powered speaker or "... slave" PA set to neutral or flat response? Does that cut the main speaker in the cabinet (like the headphone jack does)? Any other ideas for an extension?

I've got a GT100 and I'm used to twins. Looking for a little more of a sound "... footprint" or presence if that makes any sense.

Thanks,

JKC


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Fender Play April 2019
Post subject: Re: Extension Speaker or PA Questions
Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 7:30 am
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No, of course it doesn't cut the internal speaker. It's made for adding a signal to a PA rather than micing. As to options for 2 speakers, what I used to do is replace the stock speaker with a 8 ohm and add a speaker out jack that will allow another cab to be plugged in. Then when using 2 speakers since the stock one was replaced with a 8, using a ext cab thats 8 would yield a 4 ohm load. Then u can use a ext cab for gigging and at home just playing at lower volumes the 8 ohm internal speaker will be fine by itself. it won't hurt the amp and in fact the amp will strain less and run cooler with an 8. It just won;t be quite as loud which means if you gig it by itself at stage volue u will get more output distortion which with this amp you don't want. but if u use the ext cab for loud playing you will be at the optimal load and not have to worry about added output distortion.

The other benefit is you can now get a GOOD sounding speaker when you replace that piece of junk (IMO) that's in it. I use a celestion 100, the same model that's in the old mustang and it sounds like a real guitar amp now, not a home entertainment center which is what that stock speaker was designed for. (made to make the bluetooth streaming music feature sound better at the cost of guitar tone) I did that at first only because happened to have that celestion 100 watt in 8 ohms alreadyand another 8 ohm speaker in a ext cab. But myself, i prefer a 1x12. So eventually i removed the ext jack i had put in it and bought a 4 ohm version of the celestion 100 and just run the amp by itself.

The EXT jack is easy to do. I made a little L shaped bracket for the jack and screwed it to the center screw on the cab above the speaker. Connect a couple wires from the speaker terminals to the jack making sure the + and - terminals are connected to the proper places on the jack. That of course being the + to the jacks hot lug and the - to the jack's ground. When you make the L bracket, either make it out of plastic or use a isolation jack that has plastic threads so that the ground of the jack isn't shorted to the chassis via the bracket. May not matter but i'm not sure about this amp's output circuit so better safe than sorry.


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Post subject: Re: Extension Speaker or PA Questions
Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 11:35 am
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OCZAD

Thanks for the reply. I've been reading your other posts. I, actually, prefer twins. How did it sound when you used and extension? Bigger? Or just a lot of fuss for not much gain? How much of a difference can you tell with the speaker swap? My points of reference are Mesa Boogie Heartbreaker, AC30 handwired and Ampeg Reverberocket. So, not boutiques, but certainly quality tube sound with quality components... (Well, not quite so much on the Ampeg)!

Thanks in advance,

JKC


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Post subject: Re: Extension Speaker or PA Questions
Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 12:02 pm
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Well, there are a few reasons why what i would say about how it sounded as a 2x12 won't mean anything to you. Fr one, the ext cab i used was a really crappy home made one i threw together with wood i happened to have and i had a EV12 in it. So comparing the stock amp to using it with a junky ext cab with a EV that sounds worlds different and a celestion 100 in the amp that sounds a lot different than the stock....well, theres no way you can compare how it sounds as a 2x12 when there's so much more going on that's affecting the sound than the fact is 2 instead of one speaker. The other thing which by itself make it even more of a wash to compare is that when i used it that way i was on firmware V1 and now with a 4 ohm single celestion 100 speaker i'm on V2 and using different models and have EQ's working etc etc.

So nothing i could tell you really matters but i like it like this far more. Now if i had two 8 ohm celestions and did the ext cab thing and the ext cab was decent and i was on V2 using it like that, THEN i could tell you how i feel it sounded with 2 speakers vs one. Truth is, i like single 12's too so chances are even then i might have preferred the single 12 over 2. The one piece of advice i have that i am adamant about is that if you get a 4 ohm celestion 100 to replace the stock speaker, or two 8 ohm celestion 100s if you intend to run two speakers, either scenario will sound far far more like a real amp than that stock speaker which IMO ruins the amp at stage volume and is at best acceptable at bedroom volumes. More than that it will FEEL more like a real amp. Fender had celestion make the stock speaker especially for the GT line and when i called celestion they told me it;s basically the same speaker as the celestion 70/80 but built to handle a few more watts. Go to any guitar forum like TGP and start a post and ask about the 70/80 celestion speaker and see what kind of replies you get. If you get one reply from someone saying they don't hate it i'll eat my shorts. Fender put this speaker in it to make it sound better for streaming music as i think i mentioned above, and it's a compromise in guitar tone. A MAJOR one to my ear and fingers. A fender rep a couple years back when the amp debuted as much as admitted that to me in a phone call when i suggested that's what i thought. If you know and understand tube tone which you apparently do, you'll get it. To me the stock speaker sounds like solid state. The C100 makes it sound and more importantly FEEL a lot more like tubes because unlike the stock speaker it's not a guitar/full range hybrid like the stock one is.

If you want to improve the amp a lot, just replace the speaker and put the 5 or 7 band EQ on every preset at the BEGINNING of the chain and pull the lowest slider all the way down. It will be a whole different amp.


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Post subject: Re: Extension Speaker or PA Questions
Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 1:39 pm
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Thanks. I am not familiar with surfing and swapping speakers. Can you give me a link to the Celestion you are referring to? I have read about "Green Backs" and others. Just never have sat down to study it. Also, I get the sound difference you are trying to articulate. Does it still "... model" reasonably well? Does that make sense? In other words does British 80's still sound close to a JCM 8? Twin, like a Twin and so on?

I really appreciate your time and detailed replies. Hopefully I can pay it forward somehow. In any event, I will keep you (and other readers) posted on my journey. I am enjoying this amp. Totally different direction for me and I am hoping I can make it work in my current project.

JKC


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Post subject: Re: Extension Speaker or PA Questions
Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:03 pm
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Personally i never thought the models were that close anyways, and i don't know if they are closer or further with the C100 because i look for tones that work form me overall as far as quality of tone and dynamics ETC. I don't look for a given model to sound like the real thing. But i CAN say having owned a lot of marshalls that the marshall models don't sound particularly close to me with any speaker. The only thing i CAN say about that is the C100 will make it sound and feel more realistically tube like. Heres the one I use, tho mine is an older model with a different sticker one it. Same speaker tho... https://celestion.com/product/23/g12t_hot_100/

There are no doubt other speakers that would be as good or even better, but not many are available in 4 ohms as this one is. Plus i just like this speaker because i have used it in the past a lot and always have one on hand. The thing about it is it's a good solid all around speaker thats not too dark or too bright or too much or little of anything. It just works and sounds good. And try what i said about the EQ. This amp's input is too hot in the low frequencies and supplies too much low end that degrades the other frequencies and if u just try and use the bass knob or one of the EQ's after the gain stages it doesn't work the same. Put the EQ in front and just drop that 100 Hz slider down to at least -7, or use the 5 band and drop the 80 Hz all the way down. This keeps the overdrive from muddying up the low end and allows the rest of the frequency ranges to work correctly when you are tuning the amp models tone knobs. Makes thier ranges more usable and even makes the touch dynamics and volume knob dynamics much better. Also at stage volume you may find if you don't do that with the EQ up front, often the low end will collapse completely if you hit a low note with an overdive sound. Mine sounded like the speaker was blown which i later realized was too much lows at the input and the speaker was fine. It would happen no matter what speaker, even the 200 watt EV! Thats what led me to figure out it was too much low end up front. And when you cut it out like that you can add a ton of lows back later on after the gain stages and actually have far more lows than the amp could ever manage before without crapping out on low notes. If u try and cut lows AFTER the amp model it will still crap out till you get the lows so low the tone gets thin and worthless. Theres no in between. It has to happen up front before the OD section.

Overall it's a great amp but like most others it's not without it's weak points. Once i addressed those i gotta say to ME at least the amp is far better.


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Post subject: Re: Extension Speaker or PA Questions
Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 10:43 am
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oczad wrote:
The only thing i CAN say about that is the C100 will make it sound and feel more realistically tube like. Heres the one I use, tho mine is an older model with a different sticker one it. Same speaker tho... https://celestion.com/product/23/g12t_hot_100/

Interesting. As you said, that is what came in the original series. I found mine to be very "tight" and "brittle" sounding. It did get a little better over time. I think my main complaint now is that even though it warmed up a little, it still sounds "tight" and "hollow" to me. A lot of original mustang users were opting for the Cannibus Rex speaker as an upgrade. Mine is still stock. I was so excited to have a real celestion speaker but I still haven't fallen in love with the sound. Perhaps the improved DSP is making the difference.


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Post subject: Re: Extension Speaker or PA Questions
Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:36 am
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Likely you felt that way with that amp and that speaker. The 100 definitely isn't brittle because i have tried several other speakers in the GT and compared to them the C100 wasn't any more brittle. If u r talking stage volume then that's likely why. That amp was brittle loud, at least mine was with the way i used it, the models, the way i set it, etc. Couldn't dial that out without making it sound dull even with 2 other speakers. Finally got it pretty good with a EQ in the loop tho but soon after that got the GT. I assure you the stock GT speaker compared to the C100 will make you think the stock is the brittle one. I wouldn't exactly describe it like that, but similar. I would describe it as very stiff/hard and thin sounding. The C100 is a pretty well respected speaker to a lot of players opting for a higher wattage speaker for 1x12 combos that doesn't break up like low wattage. The truth is tho, no speaker really has a sound on it's own. If it sounds brittle or hollow that's due to the amp it's in and it may sound like god thru an amp who's frequency curve needs what that speaker offers. It's no different than pickups. Some sound great in one guitar and lousy in another.

Oh, and i tried a eminence in my MIII and found it dark and dull compared to the C100. Not a pleasant EQ curve in the mids either. Not sure if it was that Cannibus R because it's been a long time, but it was whatever that one shane raved about in his. Shane being that youtube guy that used to rave about the old MIII.


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Post subject: Re: Extension Speaker or PA Questions
Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:59 am
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yeah I believe Shane did go with the Cannabis R. And yes, you hit the nail on the head. At low volumes, it doesn't sound particularly bad or good. At medium volumes it sounds pretty nice. At gig volume, it's a bit of an ice pick. :x


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Post subject: Re: Extension Speaker or PA Questions
Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 1:14 pm
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Circling back on this. My hope is to use at stage volume because I am trying to "replace" a heavy twin. Expect smaller rooms, and then MIC'd or DI if larger rooms. If the Celestion works, then I'd MIC it.

OCZAD, I am just starting to learn my way around the un-modified boxed sounds and see what I want to tinker with to modify and save as my own. I will circle back around with you on moving EQ to front of chain. Get what you are saying, conceptually, but this is new territory for me. I did check Celestion and not very expensive... Especially since the amp was gifted to me.

Everyone else, if this thread gets too tailored to my personal interests and not useful for general reading, please let me know and I'll knock it off.

Thanks for the help and suggestions so far.

JKC


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Post subject: Re: Extension Speaker or PA Questions
Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:54 pm
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JCreasy wrote:
My hope is to use at stage volume because I am trying to "replace" a heavy twin.


Ok, well in the case of a twin you can still benefit with a EQ in front, but the main reason i suggested it is the amp models that have overdrive capability tend to fart out horribly at stage volume with a decent amount of drive. Being the twin is for the most part a clean model you may not benefit in the way i described. It's always a good thing to have a pre EQ because you could write a book on the things you can do with that which a post EQ won't. But in any case if you're using the twin you don't need to use the pre EQ. It can be beneficial like i said, but for the purpose i mention u likely won't need it. I think with the gain all the way up the twin is just a little driven but probably not enough to cause issues in the low end like i described.


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Post subject: Re: Extension Speaker or PA Questions
Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 7:58 pm
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I wasn't clear. The twin I am trying to replace is a Mesa Heartbreaker. That is why I was asking about extensions and then we got to talking about speaker swaps.

So, still going to try the Hot 100. Will keep everyone posted.

JKC


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Post subject: Re: Extension Speaker or PA Questions
Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 8:05 pm
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JCreasy wrote:
Circling back on this. My hope is to use at stage volume because I am trying to "replace" a heavy twin


Ok I'll bite. :roll:

So you were looking for an amp and found the Mustang GT line of amps. You looked at all the options and said "the GT 100 is the one for me. It has the features I need".

Not the GT 200 which comes with 2 speakers and surely sounds a whole lot more like a "heavy twin".

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