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Post subject: Anti-Feedback on Fender Expo
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:36 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:24 am
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There's nothing on the Fender site that I can find making any claims at all about feedback rejection built into the Expo system, yet that's one of the things that unofficial reviews have raved about. It also happens to be one of the major reasons I might stretch to buy one. I have a gig this summer that I've had for two years where feedback has always been a problem.

It's the only gig I have where feedback is a problem. In this case, the problem is not the guy at the controls. I've cranked the volume up during tech rehearsal and used a frequency meter and parametric EQ to notch out the frequencies that feed back, but the room keeps finding more frequencies to feed back until I run out of notch filters. It's a choir, so the mics have to be far away from the singers (and they hate having the mics up where the audience can see them), so basically, it's been The Gig From Hell in terms of challenging my ego as a guy who can run sound.

So, feedback is a big deal for me. I'd love to get rid of it. (Did I mention that I'm not rich?) So, if that's such a big part of the Expo system (and the other Passport systems clearly don't have it), then why don't they mention the technology among the features? That, and the refusal to mention RMS ratings on the system make it hard for me to pony up $1K for a replacement for a system that is still working for every other gig than this one.

P.S. I'm assuming that the anti-feedback feature only works for the Expo itself, and that using an Expo for center channel with a conventional Passport plugged into the pass-through would not offer the conventional passport any benefit in terms of feedback. Likely, the pass-through ports are simply wired in parallel to the input ports, and the DSP in the Expo would not affect the signal being passed through.

I like having less sound coming out of each of more speakers (the idea of the array in the first place), but I usually have those speakers spread around the hall. Having them all in one place worries me in terms of distribution. So, I probably want to buy two, and that's waaaaay not in my budget. One is not in my budget. Two is hilariously reckless, especially when you add in the lawyer fees when my wife leaves me.


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Post subject: Re: Anti-Feedback on Fender Expo
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:11 pm
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Rock Star
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Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:14 pm
Posts: 3124
Location: Linningrad
Must be some more of Fender's Engineering Magic! I wish WI KISSfan would come back and give us an update. The fact that you can have the Expo cranked up loud behind your mics and not get feedback has got to be what all the raves are about.

_________________
1976 Lefty Precision Hot Rod
2012 Lefty American Standard Jazz
2017 Lefty American Professional Precision
2018 Rumble Studio 40 Combo
2016 Rumble 200 Combo
One day they shall name a GREAT city after me, and they shall call it LINNINGRAD


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Post subject: Re: Anti-Feedback on Fender Expo
Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:00 am
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Professional Musician
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Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:07 am
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Location: Central WI
Hey Linnin, finally got logged back in here. Had some issues since the old email addy I used when I originally set up my account is no longer used by my company. Good to have connections to get a workaround for that.

Anyway, on with the Expo's and their miraculous antifeedback capabilities. Now, first and foremost I am no expert, I inherited the job of "PA guy" for this band because I ran sound at my college campus long ago. Things were much simpler then and I've never had further training, just trial and error.

Now we've used the Expos for two gigs, and both went very well. The "regulars" at our bar gig commented on the overall clarity of the vocals and how the sound was more "even" around the room. When I asked what they meant they said it was weird how when you were right by the band or back at the bar the volume was more even, where with our old/conventional PA the dance floor people were getting hit hard just to maintain sound back at the bar.

I have no idea, not a clue, how the Expos don't feedback. Contracaller's explanation about using different types of EQ's leads me to believe he is far more experienced with sound systems then I am. In fact, we are using the Expos with no add'l eq, just what's in our Mackie board. We have 3 vocal mics and 3 instrument line ins (bass and guitar direct outs and kick drum mic) With our conventional PA I had those controls set flat and used both an external EQ and a feedback buster. Yes, I know that feedback busters are a "no-no" for experienced sound techs, but again I'm a pro-novice and I play bass and sing while running sound from the stage. So the feedback buster was a HUGE crutch to use on our monitors and not have to worry about feedback during a gig.

I did read somewhere when researching the Expos that the RMS/output on each tower was approx. 390 watts power. Can't remember where I read that either. Now let me say here, I LOVE my Fender gear, my Musicmaster basses, my Strat, my Montara, now the Expos, but getting accurate information at times is very frustrating. Ok, rant over.

So Contra, we use our board in left out/mono, main left out to the first Expo and use XLR's to daisy chain the add'l two systems. Placement is one in the middle close to the drummer, in the "back." The other two are off to the side and straight back from where the old conventional mains would have been. Very strange to have a stage with no monitors or mains to hide behind anymore.

Now, when EQ'ing the Expos I have a TON less high end on the board then with the conventional PA, these systems just seem "crisper" and have a lot of output on the high end. Now maybe trimming off some of that high freq output helps to control feedback, again I'm just guessing and don't know for certain. The mids are also lower, but not quite as much as the high end. And remember, not only were we happy with the sound, not tinny, but the people in the bar commented on how clean and clear it sounded.

Here's a photo of the system as it was set up at our bar gig on 11/29....

Image

And here is a photo of our setup at the wedding on 12/6, you can see the one in the middle and the one on the far side. The closer one is just out of camera range, to the left. We also experimented a little at this gig by turning down the one in the middle to just over 1/2 and running the two outside systems wide open, no clipping, no distortion, no feedback, no problems. You can see the mic placement on the far right of the photo. So those things were cranked playing right at them and all was good.

Image

And just to give you an idea of how big the room was for that wedding, you can see our lights way off in the back here.

Image

I wish I could share some great info on how I controlled feedback with these but I just haven't had to, there's been none to control. I'm still learning with these things. The guitarist and I have an acoustic group as well, with a singer that plays a cajone. Used just one system at practice the other night and it sounded fantastic. As cool as the rock band sounds these things made our acoustics sound awesome. Best purchase ever.

Hope any of this is helpful. Man I type like I talk. :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Anti-Feedback on Fender Expo
Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:20 am
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Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:14 pm
Posts: 3124
Location: Linningrad
Great Post WI KISSfan! Thanks for all intel + photos :D

_________________
1976 Lefty Precision Hot Rod
2012 Lefty American Standard Jazz
2017 Lefty American Professional Precision
2018 Rumble Studio 40 Combo
2016 Rumble 200 Combo
One day they shall name a GREAT city after me, and they shall call it LINNINGRAD


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Post subject: Re: Anti-Feedback on Fender Expo
Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:14 am
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Professional Musician
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Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:07 am
Posts: 1747
Location: Central WI
linnin wrote:
Great Post WI KISSfan! Thanks for all intel + photos :D


You're welcome, it's more experience then intel I'm offering.

But these things are very cool. 8)


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Post subject: Re: Anti-Feedback on Fender Expo
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:08 am
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Professional Musician
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Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:07 am
Posts: 1747
Location: Central WI
Hmm, 52 views, I wonder if any of this was beneficial to Contracaller?

Anybody else bought these yet?


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Post subject: Re: Anti-Feedback on Fender Expo
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:56 pm
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Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:14 pm
Posts: 3124
Location: Linningrad
Hey WI KISSfan, in what country are the Expos made?

_________________
1976 Lefty Precision Hot Rod
2012 Lefty American Standard Jazz
2017 Lefty American Professional Precision
2018 Rumble Studio 40 Combo
2016 Rumble 200 Combo
One day they shall name a GREAT city after me, and they shall call it LINNINGRAD


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Post subject: Re: Anti-Feedback on Fender Expo
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:38 am
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Professional Musician
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Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:07 am
Posts: 1747
Location: Central WI
linnin wrote:
Hey WI KISSfan, in what country are the Expos made?


That I do not know. Would have to look at the documentation I guess. I remember reading that they were like a direct copy of some other system, Maui or some other name, but again I'd have to go back and figure out what the name or country of origin was.


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Post subject: Re: Anti-Feedback on Fender Expo
Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:12 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:24 am
Posts: 426
Made in China, according to the label on the back of the base unit. Like most stuff these days, designed in California and manufactured in China.


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Post subject: Re: Anti-Feedback on Fender Expo
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:56 am
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Professional Musician
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Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:07 am
Posts: 1747
Location: Central WI
We just played our first gig with an Expo system. 3 vocals, small bass and guitar amps mic'd and cajone mic for inputs. Ran the 6 inputs to a small mixer and into the Expo.

Worked great, fun night, plenty of volume. But for the first time ever I had a hum initially that was a little puzzling, and then a little ringing. First time ever I had an issue with feedback from the Expo systems. Turned out to the be the mic in the cajone. The sound leaving the Expo must have been projecting at exactly the right angle to enter there and bounce around back into the mic. I rotated the Expo maybe an 1/8" and everything cleared up. Weird little event I wouldn't have thought of before it happened.

After that it was smooth sailing and a fun night.

Image


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Post subject: Re: Anti-Feedback on Fender Expo
Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:54 am
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Hobbyist
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Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:36 pm
Posts: 18
What you are experiencing my friends is the magic of line array systems. I have been a Bose L1 user now for several years and have not looked back. Got rid of all my old school PA stuff.
When the Expo was introduced, it peaked my interest. I now own one. The price point vs. the Bose is what mostly attracted me. I had to know. I feel the Expo falls in between the Bose L1 models. I have the smaller L1 system and one of the bigger ones. Would feel comfortable saying the Expo compares to the middle L1.
I played a packed house Bar & grill this past weekend and used the Expo to supplement my L1 model II with two B1's. Worked great. Working on getting some video put together.


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Post subject: Re: Anti-Feedback on Fender Expo
Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:01 am
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Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:36 pm
Posts: 18
Nice stage setups, by the way guys. The line arrays, parked behind and to the side is the ticket. You have your mains and no longer a need for monitors. Glad you figured out it was the cajon, I was gonna suggest that.
I have ran into weird overtones from my bass rig through my vocal mic. Experiencing with different vocal mics has eliminated it. Different rooms provide different challenges.
While I do not own any, the Audix series mics, provide more gain before feedback, from what I have seen on some of the other forums that I am on.


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