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Post subject: Cleaning two very diffenert bass guitars
Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 10:34 am
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Location: Houston, TX
I'm trying to determine how to clean a couple of my basses. One is a pretty new Nate Mendel Precision and the other is a 1971 Precision. I believe the finishes are different and need to be cared for differently. So far, I have just been wiping them down after each use with a soft cloth. However, I think they may need actual cleaning now.

Do I clean them both the same? Do clean them or clean and polish them? Can anyone recommend something good for the Fender finish?

Thanks


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Post subject: Re: Cleaning two very diffenert bass guitars
Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 12:45 pm
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You'd be absolutely safe using a special product series made for guitar/bass cleaning, and it must be marked "nitro safe". Like this one: Fender 4-step cleaning pack
That soft cloth wipe is good for a daily routine, do the 'deep clean' when you feel the need.

A lacquered maple fretboard needs only cleaning, a rosewood/ebony (etc.) fretboard benefits from regular/occasional oil treatment. Once a year is usually enough.

(Backgrounding a little: Poly and PU finishes tolerate almost anything, nitro is more delicate. Those are by far the dominant finishes on electric guitars and basses.
And as a totally unnecessary side remark: the old school way of cleaning is Zippo fluid and a soft cotton rag - I haven't damaged any nitro guitars yet.)


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Post subject: Re: Cleaning two very diffenert bass guitars
Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 2:06 pm
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Thanks for the information....

Willie


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Post subject: Re: Cleaning two very diffenert bass guitars
Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 3:58 pm
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Music Nomad "Guitar One" is totally fabulous and safe for all finishes.
http://www.musicnomadcare.com/guitarone.html


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Post subject: Re: Cleaning two very diffenert bass guitars
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:58 pm
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Most guitar finishes are automotive paint. Non-abrasive automotive products work great and are frequently packaged in smaller containers for sale to guitar owners.

Many experts do not recommend treating rosewood boards beyond cleaning. Oiling them has some negative points such as shorter string life. But oiling rosewood makes it look pretty. Only the top cells absorb any oil as rosewood is very dense and not very absorbent. I've heard it said many times that all the oil a rosewood board needs comes from your fingers and that oiling them is unnecessary. But if you like the darker and shinier look you can oil them, but do shortly before you plan to change strings anyway.

To clean the gunk that accumulates around frets toothpicks work great. The toothpick is softer than either maple or rosewood boards or the brass frets so you can't really hurt anything with them.


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Post subject: Re: Cleaning two very diffenert bass guitars
Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 6:06 am
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Hmm... I find I'm disagreeing with just about everything you wrote 8)

That oil/rosewood opinion is so much opposite to what guitar makers and a vast majority of luthiers/techs recommend, that it would be nice to know who those "many experts" are.
Plus, I've seen my share of fretboard damages on guitars with no care...

On the paint used on guitars... Well, used to be that Fender used Duco or Lucite ages ago. But I seriously doubt that today, your "most guitar finishes are automotive paint" is true. At least, you don't see nitro or thick poly on cars :wink:
On the "non-abrasive automotive products", I'd really think twice before using them on nitro - especially since if one wants to save money, the Zippo fluid has been empirically proven nitro safe.

BTW, all "rosewood" fretboards aren't (high quality, or at all) rosewood, that's why the "etc." in my previous post.
A good ebony fretboard might remain in good condition by itself even in my 'hood (we get humid falls, hot summers, cold, central heated, crispy dry winters...), but they're usually found on such price level guitars that I wouldn't risk it.


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Post subject: Re: Cleaning two very diffenert bass guitars
Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:49 am
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jmattis wrote:
Hmm... I find I'm disagreeing with just about everything you wrote 8)

That oil/rosewood opinion is so much opposite to what guitar makers and a vast majority of luthiers/techs recommend, that it would be nice to know who those "many experts" are.
Plus, I've seen my share of fretboard damages on guitars with no care...


I did not say "no care" I said "no care beyond cleaning." No care implies not keeping it clean and I never said that. Naptha or Ronsonol or Zippo lighter fluid (which is all the same thing) is a good fretboard cleaner, even if a fire hazard. I do not oil my rosewood boards but do keep them clean. Since I clean them after each use they don't need much else.

The problem with applying oils or anything else to rosewood fingerboards is so many people use the wrong products containing things that cause damage to the wood and some will also cause damage also to the frets while most promote gunk buildup around frets. So perhaps all this damaged rosewood you are seeing started out as neglected rosewood that got softened directly as the result of using the wrong products after an extended period of not keeping it clean required an aggressive cleanup and they used the wrong stuff that one time. Such damage could result from using any product containing silicone or wax for example. Also there is going to be wear on a board, especially on the E and A string of a bass guitar for about the first two frets. Nothing you apply to the board will prevent that.

jmattis wrote:
On the paint used on guitars... Well, used to be that Fender used Duco or Lucite ages ago. But I seriously doubt that today, your "most guitar finishes are automotive paint" is true. At least, you don't see nitro or thick poly on cars :wink:


Fender still uses auto paint colors and formulas. The same ones that were used on the cars of the same color. Fender only changed from nitrocellulose lacquer to poly-acrylics because vehicle makers switched to all poly paint which meant less and less nitro paint was made and poly became much cheaper than nitro as the result of production switching to poly. Yep, nitro automotive paint is still made and used in the automotive repair and restoration industry along with higher end Fender guitars. Yes it is true there have been a few exceptions like Fender's multiple incarnations of Sunburst, Antigua and Candy Apple Red which are not exactly car colors but rather Fender color treatments that are only obtained from applying different commonly available automotive finishes in a multi-step finish application. All the other Fender colors are stock automotive colors and the paint formulas to get the colors are exactly the same as the corresponding automotive paints.

jmattis wrote:
On the "non-abrasive automotive products", I'd really think twice before using them on nitro - especially since if one wants to save money, the Zippo fluid has been empirically proven nitro safe.


And in another post the following was stated:
jmattis wrote:
You'd be absolutely safe using a special product series made for guitar/bass cleaning, and it must be marked "nitro safe". Like this one: Fender 4-step cleaning pack.


Do you know who is making and packaging the Fender care kits you so confidently recommend? MEGUIARS CAR CARE PRODUCTS COMPANY. Fender's collection of guitar care products is merely an assortment of Meguiars Car Care Products formulations in far smaller bottles than the retail bottles of exactly the same product available for about the same cost at the automotive store. These automotive products are labeled as "Safe for all automotive finishes," which would include nitro of course since it is an auto finish. By marking their care products "Safe for Nitro" Fender appeals to the collective belief that nitro requires different care. Any product saying "Safe for all automotive finishes" is just fine to use on nitro because it is also an auto finish.

Naptha/Ronsonol/Zippo is a good cleaner (especially for rosewood boards) but it offers zero protection of a painted surface from oxidation and UV induced fading. Naptha does not provide any added gloss or hide any marks or imperfections on a painted surface but rather accentuates them because it removes any wax or polish. Even with the fire hazard thing naptha is a good cleaner. On the other hand you might be surprised at how good some automotive products work on a faded or oxidized guitar paint job. For a total basket case, NuFinish liquid car polish can yield amazing restorative benefits.

jmattis wrote:
BTW, all "rosewood" fretboards aren't (high quality, or at all) rosewood, that's why the "etc." in my previous post.
A good ebony fretboard might remain in good condition by itself even in my 'hood (we get humid falls, hot summers, cold, central heated, crispy dry winters...), but they're usually found on such price level guitars that I wouldn't risk it.
[/quote]

It certainly is true that all rosewood boards are not top quality, especially for the past few years with import restrictions on top quality rainforest tonewoods, but it is still rosewood of some sort. Rosewood from different places is slightly different in color but the general density is the same. Here comes where I disagree. In my experience ebony absolutely benefits from oiling on a clockwork basis to avoid drying out while rosewood does not. So I'm 180 degrees opposite you on the ebony oiling stance. As a bassist that used to play both an upright bass with a real ebony board and a LeBlanc Paris all ebony clarinet I can confidently say that ebony not only benefits from routine oiling but actually requires it. I would oil both the upright board and the ebony clarinet with clarinet bore oil which worked fine.

Yes I used to oil rosewood but stopped about 25 years ago. My rosewood boards are fine and I keep them clean by wiping after each use with an old sock. This helps avoid gunk buildup. All my basses but one have rosewood boards. No problems.

Like I said applying a little 100% plant based oil will make the board look pretty, but it really doesn't do anything for it but make it look pretty. It doesn't seal and it doesn't protect anything. It is merely a cosmetic touch up that kills the strings faster. Worse, if you use the wrong product like home cleaning products it can lead to rosewood disaster. Rosewood is so dense that no real plant based oil will get much deeper than the top few cells anyway. You can usually safely use dedicated guitar rosewood fretboard products or pure linseed oil for example, but if you are expecting deep soaking protection to revitalize your instruments board or sealing of the board it simply isn't actually going to do it. I think I am better off using nothing than using the wrong thing. So I feel safer using nothing but oil from my fingers, but I have been known to use some nose oil too. Nose oil is free. I just wipe my nose with my fretting fingers if my fingers feel dry. Many of the people pushing oiling rosewood boards as a basic maintenance requirement are the same people selling the products in tiny bottles at inflated prices.


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Post subject: Re: Cleaning two very diffenert bass guitars
Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:21 am
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:arrow: I use Music Nomad F-One on the rosewood fretboard of my Jazz. The stuff is wonderful :!:
http://www.musicnomadcare.com/f-one.html

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Post subject: Re: Cleaning two very diffenert bass guitars
Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:45 am
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@brotherdave:
I read a difference between "care" and "clean", as in Fender's " Care and cleaning" product line.

Some current guitar paints may resemble car paints, and be made by same omnicompanies as car paints, but c'mon. PU, poly (as used in guitars), nitro just aren't car paints.

Fender switched away from nitro because a) other paints were cheaper (darn that CBS...) and b) gave a more durable, non-cracking coat. Remember, this was before the "vintage relic looks and sounds better" era.

The naphta/Ronsonol/Zippo are cleaners, which take away just about all the oils - so thus my original advice on oiling. BTW, "naphta" covers so many types of different fluids that it isn't a very safe thing to recommend, those brand names are better.

On rosewood I just repeat, all "rosewood" fretboards don't belong to the actual genus. Check your wiki, also on janka hardnesses between different real rosewoods, while you're at it.

On oil used for conditioning, I've not yet seen a fretboard ruined by wrong medicine - but many from no conditioning at all. Heck, Lemon Pledge has been used by many notable players.

On rosewood/ebony, I didn't say anyone should not condition ebony. Just made a small comparison - based on my experience; ebony seems oilier and more tolerable against abuse than rosewood.

On that nose oil part... well, please never let anyone else play your instruments.

Edit: All in all, we'll just have to agree to disagree :wink:
Generally, I'd suggest relying on the manufacturer's recommendations - see my first post.


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Post subject: Re: Cleaning two very diffenert bass guitars
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:24 pm
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jmattis wrote:
@brotherdave:
I read a difference between "care" and "clean", as in Fender's " Care and cleaning" product line.

Some current guitar paints may resemble car paints, and be made by same omnicompanies as car paints, but c'mon. PU, poly (as used in guitars), nitro just aren't car paints.

Fender switched away from nitro because a) other paints were cheaper (darn that CBS...) and b) gave a more durable, non-cracking coat. Remember, this was before the "vintage relic looks and sounds better" era.

The naphta/Ronsonol/Zippo are cleaners, which take away just about all the oils - so thus my original advice on oiling. BTW, "naphta" covers so many types of different fluids that it isn't a very safe thing to recommend, those brand names are better.

On rosewood I just repeat, all "rosewood" fretboards don't belong to the actual genus. Check your wiki, also on janka hardnesses between different real rosewoods, while you're at it.

On oil used for conditioning, I've not yet seen a fretboard ruined by wrong medicine - but many from no conditioning at all. Heck, Lemon Pledge has been used by many notable players.

On rosewood/ebony, I didn't say anyone should not condition ebony. Just made a small comparison - based on my experience; ebony seems oilier and more tolerable against abuse than rosewood.

On that nose oil part... well, please never let anyone else play your instruments.

Edit: All in all, we'll just have to agree to disagree :wink:
Generally, I'd suggest relying on the manufacturer's recommendations - see my first post.



It is hard to agree to disagree with misinformation. Fender does not contract out "special" guitar paint for guitars. It is car paint. Not something like car paint or similar to car paint or that looks like car paint. It is car paint.

Fender has always used stock automotive paint formulas and continues to do so today. It is precisely the same paint and primers used on vehicles. There are a few exceptions for specialized color treatments as I previously noted, but even these treatments are obtained by layering different automotive paints including Sunburst, Blonde, Candy Apple Red and Antigua and clear coats.

Even when color coats are nitro the primer coat can be acrylic which negates the breathability benefit of nitro. A poly/plastic/acrylic primer sealer was used on most colors by the final year of the Pre-CBS era.

Some Fender finishes (mostly a few custom colors) have always been and remain nitro. That goes for Pre-CBS, CBS and FMIC eras. Fender didn't switch to a majority of poly or acrylics because it was cheaper, but rather because colors introduced to the auto industry after about 1959 were only made in poly acrylics at the behest of the auto makers who are the only companies with enough clout with paint companies to commission new colors. Compared to auto makers, Fender is a minor consumer of Du Pont, Fuller O'Brien (now ICI) and other major automotive finish producers.

Also pre-CBS Fender was also shooting some poly/acrylic colors.

The auto industry converted to poly/acrylic lacquers from nitrocellulose lacquers for many reasons including durability, UV fade resistance and rust inhibition. But the biggest consideration was the speed of curing to a hard finish.

The colors Fender wanted to use that were originally made in nitro were still shot in nitro at Fender during CBS and are still shot in nitro today because that exact color isn't made in poly/acrylic. Also poly/acrylic automotive paints were more expensive at first due demand outstripping supply and nitro was cheaper since the auto makers were no longer using it in vast quantity and the primary demand for it is in vehicle repair and restoration. The switch to poly/acrylic was not a cost of the paint decision. The fact acrylics dried much faster was the primary consideration in some nitro color deletions and additions of new poly acrylic colors, but these changes were not as much a materials cost decision as a speeding up production decision.

Anything that says "safe for all automotive finishes" is perfectly safe to use on any Fender painted finish guitar body. Fender uses precisely the same automotive paint used on cars and always has! If you have a car polish or car wax in the garage and you like the way it makes your car look and if it says "safe for all automotive finishes" there is no need to buy a separate product just for your guitar. If it is good enough for my Buick it is good enough for my guitars. "Safe for all automotive finishes" means the same thing as "safe for nitro" because nitrocellulose lacquer is a car finish.

Nose oil is way safer for rosewood fretboards than Lemon Pledge. :-)

I know some people (mostly bassists) that smear a piece of fresh hot KFC Original Recipe chicken on their strings and fretboards. However just because I know of people who do that does not mean that I am going to smear fried chicken on mine.


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Post subject: Re: Cleaning two very diffenert bass guitars
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:22 am
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Really, it took you a month and a week to come up with a reply where you repeat all you said before..? :roll:

Quote:
It is hard to agree to disagree with misinformation.
Now, this one I agree with. Case closed for my part. Signing out. Happy trails. Etc.


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Post subject: Re: Cleaning two very diffenert bass guitars
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:00 pm
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brotherdave wrote:
Most guitar finishes are automotive paint. Non-abrasive automotive products work great and are frequently packaged in smaller containers for sale to guitar owners.

Many experts do not recommend treating rosewood boards beyond cleaning. Oiling them has some negative points such as shorter string life. But oiling rosewood makes it look pretty. Only the top cells absorb any oil as rosewood is very dense and not very absorbent. I've heard it said many times that all the oil a rosewood board needs comes from your fingers and that oiling them is unnecessary. But if you like the darker and shinier look you can oil them, but do shortly before you plan to change strings anyway.

To clean the gunk that accumulates around frets toothpicks work great. The toothpick is softer than either maple or rosewood boards or the brass frets so you can't really hurt anything with them.

I use Dr Ducks Axe Wax and string lube. This is the first I've heard about oiling strings shortening their life - was always told that oiling removes all the sweat and gunk that shortens string life.


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