It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:46 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Post subject: Amps on a budget? Pedals? Am I right in the head?
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:48 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:26 pm
Posts: 12
I am back from the dead!! c:
So I have a big question, thought this would be the best place for it. Recently I got a Keeley modded Boss Ds 1. Now, I run through a Fender Mustang 1 amp. So I'm trying to run a pedal through a modelling amp. Honestly, it's not sounding well at all.

Now how I see things, I really prefer pedals over modelling. It just feels realer to me, it's my preference, having the pedal sitting there makes me much more content, and to be honest, I hate the included distortion with my Mustang 1.

So I'm planning on selling my Mustang and getting a amp that will handle pedals better. So my questions are, is another amp (That isn't a modelling) honestly going to improve the signal and sound? The sound now that is running through my Mustang, with the pedal, is.. Choppy? I know pedals are bad through modelling amps. It's hard to describe the sound, it just isn't clear, it's like it was amplified too much and it's pure bass. I think that's what I'm trying to say, and I've tried all the different amp models, with different settings on all of them in Fender Fuse, with a couple different clean presets. (I know the simulated effects like the overdrive kill the sound.)

My next question is a bigger question, assuming this will be better than my Mustang 1. I can sell my mustang for about $120. But I know the alternatives are more expensive, especially for a decent wattage and speaker size. I'm thinking about a 1x8 speaker, like my Mustang 1.

Also, can someone tell me what the heck a amp that isn't a tube or modelling amp called? I'm so sorry, I know it's a dumb question, but I can't find out! XD Is it called 'Solid State'? I just want a plain amp, no modelling effects. Just a pure amp. If that makes sense....

I've been researching this for about two weeks, and I've compiled everything I know and have questions about in this post. But I'm sure parts of it don't make sense, so if something doesn't, don't hesitate to ask. cx The amp doesn't have to be a Fender amp or anything, I just posted here cause it said "education center," and I'm running a Fender amp now, so... I hope this is the right forum, I hope this made sense, thanks for reading this long! c:


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: Amps on a budget? Pedals? Am I right in the head?
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:19 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:37 am
Posts: 4099
Location: New York
Joshua Gill wrote:
The sound now that is running through my Mustang, with the pedal, is.. Choppy? I know pedals are bad through modelling amps. It's hard to describe the sound, it just isn't clear, it's like it was amplified too much and it's pure bass.

You might just be overloading the input. I use a guitar with humbuckers, but they are not 'hot' pickups. And I've used distortion stomp boxes with my Mustang III. They sounded fine to me. Pedals aren't 'bad' through modeling amps, you just have to be a little more careful about overloading the input.

Joshua Gill wrote:
can someone tell me what the heck a amp that isn't a tube or modelling amp called? I'm so sorry, I know it's a dumb question, but I can't find out! XD Is it called 'Solid State'? I just want a plain amp, no modelling effects. Just a pure amp. If that makes sense....

There are basically 4 types of electric guitar amps out there ....

Vacuum Tube (warm sound, slightly more fragile, more high maintence, more expensive)
Solid State (cheaper, more durable and easy to maintain, but sounds less 'warm')
Modeling (you know what this is)
Hybrid (may have a tube power amp fed by a solid-state pre-amp circuit, or a tube pre-amp can feed a solid-state output stage. So it's kind of a cross between tube and solid state)

The term you're looking for (a plain-jane non tube amp) is Solid State - like the Fender Frontman Series amplifiers.

_________________
Please subscribe to my Image Channel!
https://www.youtube.com/user/b7567


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Amps on a budget? Pedals? Am I right in the head?
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:45 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:02 pm
Posts: 1978
Location: Manchester
Joshua Gill wrote:
... is another amp (That isn't a modelling) honestly going to improve the signal and sound?


Short answer: Yes

Long answer: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssss

I've never been a fan of modelling amps. While a modelling preamp is fine for quickly recording a demo or an idea into your computer, for any serious work you do need at least a good solid state (transistor) amp or a tube amp.

Are you in a band or just a bedroom player? If you're not rehearsing and playing live then you should really only need something small, a 10 Watt tube amp is more than enough. If you get a good one then when you do need to play louder with a band you can just stick a mic in front of it and put it through the PA. Look at Blackstar, the small Vox Night Train amps, maybe a small Hughes and Kettner or the Fender Pawn Shop tube amps. You will be amazed by the improvement in quality across the board. Cleans sound warmer and more natural, heavy overdrive sounds less "fizzy" but the real difference is when the amp is playing just on the onset of breakup. The tone and dynamic range of even a low end tube amp is usually better than even the most expensive modelling amps.

Sure, they cost a bit more and they're heavier and you need to change the tubes every so often. But if you're serious about getting a good guitar sound then treat yourself to a tube amp.

_________________
Image
Image my stuff on soundcloud


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Amps on a budget? Pedals? Am I right in the head?
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:49 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:37 am
Posts: 4099
Location: New York
GilgaFrank wrote:
[While a modelling preamp is fine for quickly recording a demo or an idea into your computer, for any serious work you do need at least a good solid state (transistor) amp or a tube amp.

Unless you're Bob Weir. Or Joe Walsh. Or Steve Howe.

Or Dave Mustaine.



fwiw, my Fender Mustang III modeling amp IS a good solid state amp.

_________________
Please subscribe to my Image Channel!
https://www.youtube.com/user/b7567


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Amps on a budget? Pedals? Am I right in the head?
Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:43 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:26 pm
Posts: 12
Wow, thanks for the detailed responses! c:

@strings10927- I do have a rather good setting on my amp that my distortion pedal does work with, but I'm worried about just how versatile I can get without overloading it. You are right though, pedals aren't bad on a modelling amp, the settings just count a lot more. Thanks for the list of types of amps! I didn't know more than modelling, solid state, and tube. I generalized them. XD

@GilgaFrank- That's what I thought (about it sounding better). :lol: My playing position is slightly complicated. I am a bedroom player, but I play for people (parents, friends) rather frequently, and I play at school (Best guitar player at my school! c:), and sometimes I teach beginners about the really simple basics (Get those chords! Learn those tabs!). So I do think I could benefit from a new sound. But I hate turning my amp up, I always play with headphones, so I probably only need between 10 to 20 watts. I really prefer 20 though, cause I plan on this amp to be long term investment.

I will probably sell my Fender Mustang, and my birthday is coming up soon, so I get birthday money, and I'll be 16, so I can get a job, but I'm not old enough to move out. So I'm actually in a really good position for buying myself a nice tube amp. Thanks for the suggestions!

If you have anymore suggestions, tips, or anything I'll be checking back, so be sure to! :D


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Amps on a budget? Pedals? Am I right in the head?
Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:31 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:02 pm
Posts: 1978
Location: Manchester
As a general rule with buying gear it's always best to wait another month if it means you can buy something significantly better. Get the best gear you can possibly afford at the time, there's nothing worse than laying down a stack of cash then two months later deciding you bought the wrong thing.

As someone once said, quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten.

_________________
Image
Image my stuff on soundcloud


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Amps on a budget? Pedals? Am I right in the head?
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 6:17 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:26 pm
Posts: 12
I agree with that. I figured that out when I was getting my first electric guitar. The guy in the store made it sound cool and marketed it nicely, but the more I found out, the less I liked it. Oh, Guitar Center. :lol:

I'm considering a VOX Tube amp, but I know they are made in china and the issues that people report be scaring me. :|


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Amps on a budget? Pedals? Am I right in the head?
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:05 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:02 pm
Posts: 1978
Location: Manchester
There's another thing to consider with tube amps versus modelling amps and that's repairability. When a tube amp breaks it can be repaired in an hour with a screwdriver and soldering iron. If the custom DSP chip on your digital modelling doohickey decides it's going to fail then the entire amp is a boat anchor.

_________________
Image
Image my stuff on soundcloud


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Amps on a budget? Pedals? Am I right in the head?
Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 5:03 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:27 am
Posts: 396
Honestly, Mustangs are a fine line of amps. I had Mustang IV. I did sell it and bought a tube amp (Fender SuperSonic 60), but I am in a bit of a different situation than you. I play gigs quite regularly, record (our first album is likely to come out at the end of the year, yay!) and have a band. Anyway, tube amps are higher quality, but their price is bigger as well. You will also start investing into pedals most likely, after you buy a tube amp. You'll go "these effects are what I need, like really need". Then you'll go "ahh this would be nice". Then you'll go "fuel tank, mhm that'd be useful". Then it's "A/B switcher? Cool, might come in handy", etc :mrgreen: So that's something you need to take in account as well. But at the end of the day, a cheap tube amp (as it seems you are quite limited with the budget) might sound worse than your Mustang. Of course, you can look at the used stuff and buy that, as it will save you quite some money, but you never know what STDs the amp might have caught from the previous owner :wink: One thing you also have to take in account is that a modelling amp =/= bad for external effects, just like a tube amp =/= good for external effects. Some amps take the external effects better than others, regardless of whether they are tube amps or solid state or modelling. The only difference is that with modelling amps your settings on the external effects, e.g. your overdrive effect, won't sound good on all presets but should be adjusted based on the preset.

Now the M1 is far too small for me so I've never played it. But I know I could get a good overdrive from my M4. Just play around with all the settings, try out different cab simulations (they do make a HUGE difference), etc. So if you can't get a good distortion/overdrive sound from your Mustang, maybe you just don't know how to get it (not trying to be offensive or anything, I did spend a good portion of time before I got my lead overdrive sound like I wanted as well). Then again, maybe it's the pedal or the guitar that's faulty?

What I am trying to say is that if you are on a tight budget and want to get a different amp just to have pedals instead of onboard effects the end result might be a lot worse as you end up buying cheap stuff which ruin the tone and an amp someone markets well (like your guitar), which can take the effect you already have even worse than your M1 does.

If I were you I'd assess why I want the new amp.
Because M1 doesn't take the pedal you have in a good way? Be sure whether it's truly the amp's fault and not the pedal, try out some other pedals.
Because M1 doesn't have the distortion you want? As I said, the Mustang line amps are VERY versatile and there's a big chance you just didn't discover the setting you need.
Because you want a better amp? Nothing wrong, there are better amps, so go get one, but you'll end up paying quite a lot more so take that into account.
Because you prefer pedals to onboard effects? Again, nothing wrong. Economically wise if you want the pedals to be in a decent enough quality to get the sound quality like you have in the Mustang, you'll pay more for the effects than you paid for the amp when you bought it. Then you also have to add in the cost of a new amp that's better than Mustang. The worst thing you can do is get a good amp and low quality effects as everything will sound bad.
When I bought my amp, sure a bunch of effects I could get for 100€ would look cool. The sound would be terrible, though, despite the amp's sound being awesome. I vowed I wouldn't buy any cheap effect that would deteriorate my sound. Around 400€ down the line, I now have a KORG Polytune tuner (I didn't need a pedal tuner before, as MIV already has it incorporated in the footswitch), a Dunlop Crybaby 95F, a T-Rex DuckTail Delay and a custom made power supply that can power up to 8 effects (picking it up tomorrow). Actually, thinking about it now, that's closer to 500€, more than the price of a new Mustang IV - and I have nowhere near the amount of effects that are onboard the M series. Luckily my amp has a kickass overdrive in it, so I at least don't have to buy any overdrive pedals.. Anyway, just my opinion and experience about all of this.

_________________
Image
Gear: Gibson Les Paul Studio Limited WBCR (2 Burstbucker Pro PUPs)
Fender Stratocaster Highway One
'93 Fender Deluxe Reverb Reissue


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Amps on a budget? Pedals? Am I right in the head?
Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 6:22 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:37 am
Posts: 4099
Location: New York
GilgaFrank wrote:
If the custom DSP chip on your digital modelling doohickey decides it's going to fail then the entire amp is a boat anchor.

Not for at least 5 years.

Image

After 5 years, I wouldn't fix anything. I'd get the NEW Fender Mustang v2 with "five new amp models, five new effects, intelligent pitch shifting and XLR stereo outputs in Mustang models III, IV and V."

But then I've paid for 2 amps, surely this is getting expensive, right?

Fender Mustang III v1, March 2012: $350
Replacement Fender Mustang III v2 current pricing: $350
Total for a decade of service: $700

Fender Hot Rod Deluxe III: $730 plus tax
How many times will I change my tubes over 10 years? Does it have the clean headroom my 100 watt SS amp has? No expression pedal? No effects? No built-in tuner?

_________________
Please subscribe to my Image Channel!
https://www.youtube.com/user/b7567


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Amps on a budget? Pedals? Am I right in the head?
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 8:31 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:50 pm
Posts: 4602
Location: ˚ɷ˚
strings10927 wrote:
GilgaFrank wrote:
If the custom DSP chip on your digital modelling doohickey decides it's going to fail then the entire amp is a boat anchor.

Not for at least 5 years.

Image

After 5 years, I wouldn't fix anything. I'd get the NEW Fender Mustang v2 with "five new amp models, five new effects, intelligent pitch shifting and XLR stereo outputs in Mustang models III, IV and V."

But then I've paid for 2 amps, surely this is getting expensive, right?

Fender Mustang III v1, March 2012: $350
Replacement Fender Mustang III v2 current pricing: $350
Total for a decade of service: $700


You forgot to factor in the price for a PC, the price of Windows, and worse, having to buy a PC that is not a modern high DPI machine. The outdated FUSE software isn't compatible with high DPI scaling, and to add insult to the injury, uses the deprecated Silverlight, where you cannot run individual apps with different scaling settings. (Part of the reason why Microsoft scrapped Silverlight is its incompatibilities with newer hardware.)
With a Mustang I or II, you depend on FUSE on a PC, as you can't do all the settings from the panel.

Then you also forget that the warranty does not cover software. If a security bug is discovered or Windows 9 turns out to not be compatible with FUSE the day after Fender no longer supports the software, you're S.O.L. Fender has made no commitments to future software support as far as I can tell.
Then there's the FUSE web site, which may be closed at any time.

When you rely on future software and parts support, and there's no commitment to either from the manufacturer, I think your choice is a gamble at best, and odds are unfortunately that it will be obsolete and abandoned. My guess is that the Mustang series and FUSE are already on life support, and due to be cut off any day now.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Amps on a budget? Pedals? Am I right in the head?
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 9:24 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:37 am
Posts: 4099
Location: New York
most people don't consider their computer an accessory to their guitar amp. I don't know about you, but I had 4 computers in the house before and after purchasing a Mustang amp.

DPI scaling can be configured per program, so no issue there.

As far as losing Fuse altogether, with no plan to provide a valid replacement, I'll believe that when I see it. :wink:

_________________
Please subscribe to my Image Channel!
https://www.youtube.com/user/b7567


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Amps on a budget? Pedals? Am I right in the head?
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 11:11 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:50 pm
Posts: 4602
Location: ˚ɷ˚
strings10927 wrote:
DPI scaling can be configured per program, so no issue there.

It would behoove you to try it before making such statements.

The setting you select on the compatibility tab for Fender FUSE only changes the size of the splash screen, while the presentation is done by Silverlight.
Silverlight is, by design, unaware of what compatibility settings you have chosen for the app.
The output is scaled, so on high DPI displays you won't see or be able to control the pedals, because they disappear below the bottom window edge.

To get FUSE to work as expected, I would have to buy a "new" laptop with old specs. I have multiple laptops, but ALL of them have high DPI. This is 2014, not 2007.
And Fender isn't fixing this problem under warranty - software is specifically excluded from the warranty despite being required to get full use out of a Mustang I/II.

Thankfully, Microsoft killed the abominable Silverlight, because with retina-class and better displays that depend on DPI aware apps, i.e. modern computers, it's quite frankly too difficult for today's programmers (for lack of a better word) who expect the abstraction layers to magically do the right thing.

Feel free to praise Mustang/FUSE - clearly it works for you right now. But don't make the assumption that it is usable for everyone, or even as cheap as it was for you.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Amps on a budget? Pedals? Am I right in the head?
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 11:35 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:37 am
Posts: 4099
Location: New York
arth1 wrote:
don't make the assumption that it is usable for everyone, or even as cheap as it was for you.

yes sir! :roll:

I guess I and the rest of the Fuse users are all living in the dark ages.

_________________
Please subscribe to my Image Channel!
https://www.youtube.com/user/b7567


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Amps on a budget? Pedals? Am I right in the head?
Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 3:01 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:25 pm
Posts: 1162
Location: In a house....unless I'm at work....then I'm in a shop.
Sorry Joshua for being late to this discussion.

I think the first thing we should talk about is, what do you need this amp to do?

Are you...
1) Only playing at home for yourself?
2) Home and time to time playing with friends?
3) Recording?
4) Hope to use it for Gigs at some point?
5) I am in a band now and need it to gig.

There are a bunch of amps out there, know what you want the amp to cover is your first step in narrowing the field. A Marshall 120 with 2 4X12 cabs or a Fender 120 twin sound great.....unless you live in an apartment then this is the fastest way known to man to get an eviction notice on your front door.

I will ASSUME you are a home player and maybe wanting to record.

If so, I would suggest one of the following.
1) Fender Excelsior Pro.
2) Peavey Delta blues 210

Both of these amp are all tube and have a tremolo built in. The Peavey is a EL-84 wile the Fender is a 6V6. They can work well at lower volumes and will record well and react to pedal the way I think you would like them too.

I know that the Peavey can be used to gig just fine, if you need to later on, The Fender might need to be miked, but will still work.

I hope this helps.
JT

BTW, if these are outside your budget, then look for a Fender champ 600 reissue, Great little amp, all tube and can usually be found at a good price.

_________________
Marriage is like playing cards...

At first all you want are Hearts and Diamonds.

But in the end, all you really want is a Club and a Spade.

Image


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: