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Post subject: Beginner Guitar Volume Advice
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:49 am
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This is probably silly question but do I keep my volume up or down, at the moment it's turned up a small bit, if I download a preset and load it into mustang amp it volume usely up around 8 or 9 on preset and I've master volume down at 3 and it's load at that. Hope some one can help thanks


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Post subject: Re: Beginner Guitar Volume Advice
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:45 pm
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Unless you have some limitation, like too much noise because you live in an apartment or something, set the volume wherever you like it. Experiment with different volumes. If the amp model is a good one, the tone(s) will change with volume. It's up to you and what you like or want.

If you do have volume limitations due to proximity of other people who may get annoyed, I suggest you try the headphone route.

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Post subject: Re: Beginner Guitar Volume Advice
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:44 am
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Thank you for the replay was getting confused over guitar volume, amp volume and master volume.


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Post subject: Re: Beginner Guitar Volume Advice
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:09 am
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Trooper22 wrote:
Thank you for the replay was getting confused over guitar volume, amp volume and master volume.

The two adjustments correlate to the two parts of your amplifier.
Those being the preamp and the power amp.
The preamp section includes your tone shaping tools like bass, middle, treble, contour, etc.
Those are all ahead of the power amp section.
The power section takes the signal from the preamp and gives it enough power to drive the speaker(s).

Typically, Volume will mean preamp gain and Master will mean power amp gain.
With Volume high the preamp section will clip, producing distortion.
With Master high the power section will clip, producing distortion.
The two distortions don't always sound alike.
For a clean setting, set the Volume to somewhere in the lower third of the total sweep of the dial and set the Master to suit your overall volume preference.
Remember that the point at which the Master will continue to provide a clean sound depends on the signal level it gets from the Volume control.
That means there is a practical limit to how loud you can get while still clean.

Let's say, for example, you have the Volume at 4 and the Master at 6 and that setting is a nice clean chime.
It may or may not actually be clean at those exact settings.
I just chose them arbitrarily.
It depends on the amp in front of you, or in your case, the amp model you're using.
Now let's say you decide you want more volume.
If you turn the Master up to 8 or 9 you will very likely get some breakup.
That's because you "pushed" the power section into a clipping state because the preamp signal was too high to reproduce cleanly at that high of a Master setting.
To run the Master at 9 or 10 and still get a clean chimey sound you'll need to back off on the Volume, thus reducing the total volume output.
That threshold is known as clean headroom and can usually be obtained using a variety of ratios between Master and Volume.

The same is true for overdriven sounds (breakup).
For a certain amount of overdrive there will be several ratios between Volume and Master which will work to give you a specific degree of breakup at a specific volume.
The different ratios will all have a slightly different character since the two parts of the amp will be producing varying degrees of the distortion, which, as I said above, don't always sound alike.
Also, any pedals you put between the guitar and the amp's input jack, known as being in front of the amp, can also change the overall volume and breakup, depending on how you set the amp and how you set the pedal(s).
The volume control on your guitar, in combination with any pedals you have engaged, will affect the signal strength in the preamp section.
Many players will turn the guitar volume full up and then set their amp for the highest amount of breakup they plan to use.
Then when they want to clean up the sound, they will roll off the guitar volume a small amount which varies from one situation to the next.
Rolling off the guitar volume reduces the signal strength going into the preamp which reduces the amount of gain/breakup it sends to the power section of the amp.

Clear as mud?
If not, read all of that again a few times until it starts to make sense.
Then go and experiment with it to find out how you like it.

Enjoy!

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Post subject: Re: Beginner Guitar Volume Advice
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:26 am
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...Or try something a bit simpler, like rely on the info in Mustang I&II V2 Quick Start Guide
Quote:
"MASTER volume is the only knob you need to adjust at first. All other knob settings are programmed as part of each PRESET."


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Post subject: Re: Beginner Guitar Volume Advice
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:59 am
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What BMW-KTM describes applies well to tube amps. But you're using a Mustang amp, so ....

I'm not sure what model Mustang you have, but using Mustang III as an example:

There are 100 presets. Each preset has an individual VOLUME control, and the MASTER controls the overall volume of the amp (all presets).

So lets say you are using preset 01 and you have the MASTER set at a comfortable volume. Now you switch to preset 02 and it's too quiet, so you turn the MASTER up until it's at a comfortable volume. When you switch back to preset 01, it's going to be too loud!

So instead, turn the VOLUME up on preset 02 until it matches the same comfortable volume from preset 01. Now when you switch back and forth between the presets, they will be balanced against each other, no matter where the MASTER is set.

There is no "ratio between Volume and Master which will work to give you a specific degree of breakup at a specific volume". That's tube amp speak. This is a solid state modeling amp, and it behaves a little differently in that respect.

Some Mustang users have stated there is an advantage to "Gain Staging":

From Wikipedia:
Gain staging is the process of managing the relative levels in a series of gain stages to prevent introduction of noise and distortion. Ideal gain staging occurs when each component in an audio signal flow is receiving and transmitting signal in the optimum region of its dynamic range.

A lot of Mustang users seem to like to lower the VOLUME on all factory presets and raise the MASTER as needed.

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Post subject: Re: Beginner Guitar Volume Advice
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:48 pm
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Am using mustang 1 v2, starting to get hang of it now I hope I've the guitar one pickup turned up a bit for clean sound other pickup turned up more for a distorted sound, thanks again for taking time to explain


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Post subject: Re: Beginner Guitar Volume Advice
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:50 pm
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Hey strings,

I haven't played much with the Mustangs but when I had my Line-6 AX2-212, each amp model had a Volume/Gain and a Master.
Then there was a global Master for the overall amp volume, which would change of course with each preset so you had to balance all the various Masters you were using.
My Boogie Road King works the same way.
Four channels each having their own Gain and Master controls and then a global Master for the overall amp volume.

It sounds like you're saying the Mustangs don't work that way?
Are you saying each model or preset has only one volume/gain control, sort of like a non-master, single channel amp?

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Post subject: Re: Beginner Guitar Volume Advice
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:30 am
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very interesting thread, IMHO YMMV (to quote our favorite Martian)

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Post subject: Re: Beginner Guitar Volume Advice
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:15 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Are you saying each model or preset has only one volume/gain control, sort of like a non-master, single channel amp?

yep exactly. For example, here is the Twin Reverb-Amp model in Fender Fuse:

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And the real faceplate:

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Post subject: Re: Beginner Guitar Volume Advice
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:30 am
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I don't understand.
That's two, not one.
Volume and gain.
Then there would be a hardware volume.
That's three, like my old Line-6.
Those two "soft" controls should work as I described, should they not?

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Post subject: Re: Beginner Guitar Volume Advice
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:54 am
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perhaps you are considering GAIN and MASTER to be one in the same? I didn't think they were the same thing.

WHAT’S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GAIN AND VOLUME?

BMW-KTM wrote:
Four channels each having their own Gain and Master controls and then a global Master for the overall amp volume.

I do not see a MASTER control in the pic above.

**Edit: I think I see the source of the confusion. I read this as 3 separate items (volume, gain, and master):

BMW-KTM wrote:
each amp model had a Volume/Gain and a Master.


To be honest, I don't care about all the nomenclature surrounding amps. Some knobs are even mislabeled by the manufacturer (right, Leo?). What I described in my first post above is a functional way to operate the amp. You could exchange the words "MASTER" and "VOLUME" for "BACON" and "HAM SANDWICH" and the principle still applies.

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Post subject: Re: Beginner Guitar Volume Advice
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:02 pm
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I don't think I'm confused about anything here.
In the FUSE pic you provided I see two controls.
One for preamp and one for power amp.
Those are "soft" controls because the model is a "soft" amp.
If it's a model of a tube amp (and it is) then the functions of the two controls should mimic similar functions of a real amp.
I understand the real Twin doesn't have those controls but the model does.
The models are intended to behave like actual amplifiers.
The model has two controls and logic dictates the Gain should correspond to preamp and the volume should correspond to power section, even though the real amp has no such controls.
Then there is a physical volume control on the hardware; the amp itself.
That's three controls.
My Line-6 was the exact same way.
Whether the amp it was modelling had separate pre and power controls in real life was irrelevant.
The model put them there and they behaved as though the real amp had them.
Then there was a global master on the amp itself.

My instructions on how to adjust a tube amp should still be valid for the model you've shown ... if it's a good model and does its job by behaving like a tube amp.
Otherwise having a modelling amp is a waste of time.
It doesn't model tube amps at all.
It just does it's own thing.
The whole point of a modelling amp is for the models to behave and sound like tube amps.


Image

When I said above, "four channels, each having..." I was referring to my Boogie RK.

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Post subject: Re: Beginner Guitar Volume Advice
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:19 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I don't think I'm confused about anything here.

I was actually referring to myself, as I can't figure out what you're going on and on about or why.

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Post subject: Re: Beginner Guitar Volume Advice
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:35 pm
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I'm only trying to understand why you felt it was necessary to imply my description didn't apply.

strings10927 wrote:
What BMW-KTM describes applies well to tube amps. But you're using a Mustang amp, so ....


I see no reason why those instructions don't apply.
I hope it's not just a pissing match.
If it is, then I guess I'm sorry to learn that's still where we are.
I thought you and I had moved past that.

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