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Post subject: Re: I'm trying to decide between two amps.
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:55 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
Nothing can make a good guitar sound great or a great guitar sound superb like a tube-driven Fender amp......

makes you wonder why a Fender guy like Stevie Ray Vaughan, who surely could use whatever he wanted and certainly knew a thing or 2 about tone, ultimately opted for Marshall and Dumble amps for live performance.

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Post subject: Re: I'm trying to decide between two amps.
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:29 am
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strings10927 wrote:
Retroverbial wrote:
Nothing can make a good guitar sound great or a great guitar sound superb like a tube-driven Fender amp......

makes you wonder why a Fender guy like Stevie Ray Vaughan, who surely could use whatever he wanted and certainly knew a thing or 2 about tone, ultimately opted for Marshall and Dumble amps for live performance.


Just to add this is a direct quote from Fender on there site:

"Tube amps are generally more responsive and beloved by artists who play more traditional rock music.
“When you play chords or pick notes, it’s the way the tube amp responds to it, the way a note returns to you after you play it,” Heins said. “With certain tubes, they kind of have a sag—people call it ‘spongy.’ It has a bouncy, lively feel. Sometimes with digital amps, it’s very hard to get that right.” " there not saying it can't be done but sound to me like it is quite the effort. so IMO It what you are going after as far as tone and what turn you on
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Post subject: Re: I'm trying to decide between two amps.
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:59 am
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mud, point being why didn't SRV use Fender tube amps instead of Marshall and Dumble tube amps for live performance? He was known to record with a Super Reverb amp primarily.

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Post subject: Re: I'm trying to decide between two amps.
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:39 am
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Apologizing to the OP not trying to hijack but I was asked

From this article it seems he used plenty of fenders in live performance's, near the end he used Dumble amp, but to be fair this Drumble from them was not your standerd Drumble you could buy at your music store it was custom made for him. As I posted in the post before this one "IMO It's what you are going after as far as tone and what turn you on" so I assume and it is only an assumption, at that time this is the sound he was going after and it must have turned him on.

"Stevie Ray Vaughan’s guitar tone was as dry as a San Antonio summer and as sparkling clean as a Dallas debutante, the product of the natural sound of amps with ample clean headroom.

However, Vaughan occasionally used pedals to augment his sound, mainly to boost the signal, although he occasionally employed a rotating speaker cabinet and wah pedals for added textural flair.
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A Focused Stevie Ray Vaughan Comes Clean in 1988 Guitar World Interview

Vaughan’s fierce playing style was the key to his distinctive sound, but it was also very hard on his equipment, and over the years his amps and pedals were heavily modified to withstand the abuse.

AMPS

1980 Marshall model 4140 Club and Country

Most guitarists with multi-amp rigs will use Fender amps for clean tones and Marshalls for distortion and overdrive, but Vaughan did the opposite. However, it made sense that he used a Marshall for clean tones, as his Marshall was a model 4140 Club and Country combo with two 12-inch speakers, which was Marshall’s version of a Fender Twin Reverb. With 100 watts of output and a power amp section driven by KT77 tubes, the Club and Country provides more clean headroom than the typical Marshall design. The amp remained in Vaughan’s rig until early 1984, when a Dumble Steel String Singer replaced it.

The heart and soul of Vaughan’s live rig for most of the Eighties was a pair of Fender Vibroverb combos. The Vibroverbs, each featuring a single 15-inch speaker, were the source of Vaughan’s cranked-up overdrive tones, and he also used one of the combos to power his Fender Vibratone rotating-speaker cabinet throughout his career. Introduced in 1963, the Vibroverb was Fender’s first amp with built-in reverb.

Fender initially produced the Vibroverb with two 10-inch speakers and brown Tolex covering, but in late 1963 the model’s design switched to a single 15-inch speaker and black Tolex. Vaughan always assumed that his Vibroverbs were one serial number apart from one another based on the numbers “5” and “6” on the tube charts, but those are production run numbers and the actual serial numbers were 36 numbers apart.


Dumble Steel String Singer

Vaughan first discovered the amps of legendary Los Angeles boutique-amp pioneer Alexander “Howard” Dumble when recording Texas Flood at Jackson Browne’s Downtown Studios in 1982, using Browne’s Dumbleland 300-watt bass amp to record most of the tracks during the sessions.

Impressed with the Dumble amp’s ability to maintain crystal-clean tone even when subjected to his aggressive low E string attack, Vaughan custom-ordered a Steel String Singer head, which Dumble beefed up with 6550 tubes and 150 watts of output instead of the model’s usual 6L6 tubes and 100 watts. Vaughan usually used his Dumble head with a custom-built 4x12 cabinet loaded with Electro-Voice speakers.

When delivered in 1984, the Steel String Singer immediately became the main clean amp in Vaughan’s rig, earning the “King Tone Consoul” nickname that Vaughan bestowed upon it. Vaughan acquired a second Dumble Steel String Singer in 1986.

Mid-Sixties Fender Super Reverb


Before Vaughan bought his Marshall Club and Country amp, a mid-Sixties blackface Fender Super Reverb was the source of his clean tone. When Vaughan started playing increasingly larger venues in 1983, he added a pair of Super Reverbs to his rig, which he used along with his Vibroverbs.

Like the Vibroverb, the Super Reverb is powered by two 6L6 tubes and provides 40 watts of output, but because it has four 10-inch speakers (Vaughan loaded Electro-Voice speakers in his Super Reverb amps) instead of a single 15-inch speaker it provided the louder clean headroom Vaughan needed onstage.

Eventually, the Super Reverbs replaced the Vibroverbs as the source of his onstage overdrive tones, although Vaughan kept one Vibroverb in his rig exclusively for driving the Vibratone rotating speaker cabinet. During his 1990 tour, Vaughan replaced the Super Reverbs with a pair of Fender’s newly released ’59 Bassman Reissue amps.

Fender Twin Reverb

For his 1985 Japan tour, Vaughan used a pair of Fender Twin Reverb amps (a mid-Sixties 85-watt blackface model and a late-Seventies 100-watt silverface version with master volume) in place of his Dumble Steel String Singer head. The Twins disappeared from his rig after that tour, only to resurface for a brief period in 1987 when they temporarily replaced his Vibroverb combos.

Early Seventies Marshall model 1967 Major Lead



As Vaughan’s insatiable appetite for power increased, so did the size of his onstage rig, until 1988, when he decided to simplify his multi-amp setup by stripping it down to a pair of high-powered amps: his 150-watt Dumbles and a 200-watt Marshall Major Lead head. Vaughan experimented with a variety of speaker cabinets for the Marshall, including huge 4x15 and 8x10 cabinets designed for bass, before settling on a 4x12 loaded with Electro-Voice speakers like he used with his Dumbles.

If the Marshall Major lasted through the set (this model’s linear design frequently caused intense voltage spikes that arced across adjacent tube sockets and blew tubes), Vaughan would use it to perform a raucous version of “Voodoo Child (Slight Return)” to close his set.

In Step session amps

When recording In Step, his last studio album with Double Trouble, Vaughan had 32 different amps at his disposal, including a 1962 Fender Twin, a mint original 1959 Fender Bassman, and vintage Fender Harvard and Magnatone amps, in addition to the Fender Vibroverbs, Dumble Steel String Singers, and various Fenders and Marshalls he used onstage. When recording each song, Vaughan experimented with different combinations of amps and settings until he dialed in the sound he wanted."
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Post subject: Re: I'm trying to decide between two amps.
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:18 pm
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I won't be dragged into the part of the conversation where SRV's gig rig is counted gig by gig. :wink:

But there's a fundamental difference in Fender amps vs Marshalls and Dumbles; the first have their roots in folk, country etc. genres, thus giving absolutely beautiful cleans, while the latter are designed with "first comes distortion" (sometime later follows loud, loud, LOUD) ideology. And: this is not a better/worse comparison, all those are great amps.


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Post subject: Re: I'm trying to decide between two amps.
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:10 pm
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jmattis wrote:
I won't be dragged into the part of the conversation where SRV's gig rig is counted gig by gig. :wink:

But there's a fundamental difference in Fender amps vs Marshalls and Dumbles; the first have their roots in folk, country etc. genres, thus giving absolutely beautiful cleans, while the latter are designed with "first comes distortion" (sometime later follows loud, loud, LOUD) ideology. And: this is not a better/worse comparison, all those are great amps.


Absolutely, and it comes down to what the player likes and can afford at a particular time, I don't think any of these amps are better than the next one, yes they are all very fine amps, and personally I would play any of them without hesitation, and be quite happy.


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Post subject: Re: I'm trying to decide between two amps.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:27 am
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jmattis wrote:
And: this is not a better/worse comparison, all those are great amps.

that's exactly my point, it depends on the application. So you can't exactly say "Nothing can make a good guitar sound great or a great guitar sound superb like a tube-driven Fender amp......".

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Post subject: Re: I'm trying to decide between two amps.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:27 am
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strings10927 wrote:
So you can't exactly say "Nothing can make a good guitar sound great or a great guitar sound superb like a tube-driven Fender amp......".

Well, I didn't.
But sure you (= generic) can - this kind of statements aren't scientifically proven facts, they are opinions. And agreed by many, I might add.


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Post subject: Re: I'm trying to decide between two amps.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:24 pm
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jmattis wrote:
strings10927 wrote:
So you can't exactly say "Nothing can make a good guitar sound great or a great guitar sound superb like a tube-driven Fender amp......".

Well, I didn't.
But sure you (= generic) can - this kind of statements aren't scientifically proven facts, they are opinions. And agreed by many, I might add.

+1 You can say what ever you like, as opinion are like butt holes everyone's got one, and if someone wants to say "Nothing can make a good guitar sound great or a great guitar sound superb like a tube-driven Fender amp......". that my friend is an opinion and when your on a fender site more people are likely to say that than "Nothing can make a good guitar sound great or a great guitar sound superb like a tube-driven enter your brand here

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Post subject: Re: I'm trying to decide between two amps.
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:29 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Strattopper wrote:
Everybody say's their amps clean sound is close or just as good as Fenders...
But we all know Fender has and always will have the best clean sound that we all know and love...


+1

Nothing can make a good guitar sound great or a great guitar sound superb like a tube-driven Fender amp......

Image

From the 6-watt Vibro Champ to the 135-watt ultra-linear Twin Reverb, they remain the industry standard IMNSHO.

Arjay

Well, ScreamingStrat, perhaps, Arjay might find he has too many and would coff up one for ya (no forum hags need apply though). You'll have to get your own distortion pedal. We wouldn't want to take advantage of Arjay and his great collection. :lol:
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Post subject: Re: I'm trying to decide between two amps.
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:28 am
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Many, many, many times a big name artist will choose one product for the studio and another product for the stage.
When you think about it, it's not all that strange.
When you sell an album, people don't see you play.
They hear you play ..... in a perfectly controlled sonic environment.
Sonic character is everything and there is nothing else.
When you perform live in a large rockstar venue, what you look like is everything.
Nobody expects superb sound in a bar.
Nobody expects superb sound in an arena or stadium either.
They are there to watch you perform.
It's a show.
It's not an audiophile experience.

The fact that Jimmy Page used a Les Paul on stage absolutely does NOT mean he thinks it's the best sounding or best quality or most playable instrument. It only means he thought it would look cooler. He used a Tele in the studio, far more than any other guitar. When sonic character was everything, he chose a Tele.

Stevie Ray Vaughan preferred the sound of Fender tube amps.
His preference is obvious by what he chose to use in the studio where sound is everything.
What he or anyone other big name chooses or doesn't choose for a live performance may or may not have anything to do with tone ... but the selection will have to do with appearance.

Want more proof that gear selection for stage performance is mostly about looks?


Image

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Post subject: Re: I'm trying to decide between two amps.
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:19 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Many, many, many times a big name artist will choose one product for the studio and another product for the stage.
When you think about it, it's not all that strange.
When you sell an album, people don't see you play.
They hear you play ..... in a perfectly controlled sonic environment.
Sonic character is everything and there is nothing else.
When you perform live in a large rockstar venue, what you look like is everything.
Nobody expects superb sound in a bar.
Nobody expects superb sound in an arena or stadium either.
They are there to watch you perform.
It's a show.
It's not an audiophile experience.

The fact that Jimmy Page used a Les Paul on stage absolutely does NOT mean he thinks it's the best sounding or best quality or most playable instrument. It only means he thought it would look cooler. He used a Tele in the studio, far more than any other guitar. When sonic character was everything, he chose a Tele.

Stevie Ray Vaughan preferred the sound of Fender tube amps.
His preference is obvious by what he chose to use in the studio where sound is everything.
What he or anyone other big name chooses or doesn't choose for a live performance may or may not have anything to do with tone ... but the selection will have to do with appearance.

Want more proof that gear selection for stage performance is mostly about looks?


Image


Great points, all.

I never went in for erecting some phallic amp temple onstage to enhance my libido or my playing. To me it was always about getting the job done. And the Fender amp does that, does it quite well in fact. IMO its visuals are just as pleasing as some overhyped mega-stack.

Make of that what you will.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: I'm trying to decide between two amps.
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:21 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Many, many, many times a big name artist will choose one product for the studio and another product for the stage.
When you think about it, it's not all that strange.
When you sell an album, people don't see you play.
They hear you play ..... in a perfectly controlled sonic environment.
Sonic character is everything and there is nothing else.
When you perform live in a large rockstar venue, what you look like is everything.
Nobody expects superb sound in a bar.
Nobody expects superb sound in an arena or stadium either.
They are there to watch you perform.
It's a show.
It's not an audiophile experience.

The fact that Jimmy Page used a Les Paul on stage absolutely does NOT mean he thinks it's the best sounding or best quality or most playable instrument. It only means he thought it would look cooler. He used a Tele in the studio, far more than any other guitar. When sonic character was everything, he chose a Tele.

Stevie Ray Vaughan preferred the sound of Fender tube amps.
His preference is obvious by what he chose to use in the studio where sound is everything.
What he or anyone other big name chooses or doesn't choose for a live performance may or may not have anything to do with tone ... but the selection will have to do with appearance.

Want more proof that gear selection for stage performance is mostly about looks?


Image


Agree 100% and that looks exactly like the rig Ted Nuisance uses, some of the lightest Marshal Stacks ever loaded in and out of the semi, he only used one and it was either off stage or under the stage with a mic, otherwise he would feedback as he did go to 11
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Post subject: Re: I'm trying to decide between two amps.
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:16 am
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Great picture, Matt. Says it all.

Add to that different speakers and mods than stock, and the genius behind the racks. At least drummers are more honest. Well, some are. Okay, maybe a little reverb, and compression. What? Adding a pre-recorded percussion backing track on stage? Well, I never. :wink:

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