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Post subject: Blue note and expanded blues scale
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:05 am
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Proficiency: Beginner. Some theory might be useful also to advanced players.

The typical "blue note" is often used in blues, folk and related genres.
But what is it, why do we find it pleasing, and how can we use it to our advantage?

Like a piano, a modern guitar is designed for "12 note equal temperament" tuning, where each octave is divided into 12 notes, each being the same distance from the preceding note. Each note has a frequency that's around 1.0595 times the frequency of the preceding half-note. If repeating that multiplication 12 times, you end up at 2 times the original frequency, which we call an octave.
This makes it possible to transpose songs between keys, and if you go up a third or a fifth, and continue to do so, you will end up at the same notes, every time, no matter how many octaves up you go. This is not the case for other tuning systems.

That's good, but our ears don't really like intervals that's the square root of 1/12. We like harmonic ratios like 3:2 and 4:3 better, where the frequency of a note "resonates" with other notes, or with the base frequency for the scale we use. As an example, the "power chord", or perfect fifth interval is almost exactly a 3:2 ratio with the base note which is why it sounds so good.

Enter the tritone. A tritone interval - also known as an augmented fourth or diminished fifth - is 6 semitones above the root note (which we call "600 cents" distance), and exactly halfway up the octave (which we call a "1200 cents" distance). So we would expect it to sound good, because it's half an octave?
No? No.
In equal temperament, it sounds exceptionally bad. If going with a concert pitch of 440 Hz for the note A, the tritone above it, Eb, is the square root of two times 440 Hz, or 622.25 Hz. 440:622.25 or 1:1.4142 is not a good harmonic ratio. Try playing an open string and the 6th fret and alternate between the two, and you'll hear that it just doesn't sound good.

However, there is a note relatively close to it that does sound better. There's a 7:5 harmonic ratio that's slightly below the "bad" tritone that sounds much better to our ears. It's at 616 Hz, instead of 622.25 Hz.
We can't lower (flatten) the pitch of a fretted note, but we can bend the fret below it, almost but not quite a half tone, and reach that note. Instead of bending the 100 (per)cents of a half-note, we bend around 82.5 (per)cent, and reach that nicer sounding tone that resonates with our root note.

This 7:5 interval is known as a septimal tritone, or a supermajor fourth, but more commonly the "blue note", and it sounds righteous.
Especially when added to a pentatonic or dorian scale.

How do we use it in practice?

Let's look at the 10-12 fret "box" for pentatonic/blues scale in D, for convenience. It's halfway up the fretboard, where strings take the least amount of work to bend, and the D scale is often familiar.

To play a pentatonic scale with the blue note added:
6th string 10th fret = D
6th string 13th fret = F
5th string 10th fret = G
5th string 10th fret bent almost to the 11th fret = Ab7
5th string 12th fret = A
4th string 10th fret = C
4th string 12th fret = D

Many people would play a blues scale with just a G# or Ab instead of the blue note, but that is missing some of the point. If doing vibrato, you can get away with it because the exact frequency disappears in the vibrato, but if playing a plain note, the blue note needs to be bent to sound truly good. On a standard tuned piano, you don't have much choice, but have to play the too sharp note, but we guitar players have an advantage, and should use it.

Practice lesson 1, in D:
Play the blues scale above in the boxes for 10th-12th fret (D).
Use bends on the 10th fret of the 5th, and figure out how much to bend to make it sound "just right".
Play the scale up and down.

Practice lesson 2, in A:
Repeat the same for 3rd-5th fret (A). This will be slightly harder.

Practice lesson 3, in D:
Play the common blues scale on the 1st to 3rd string, using the "Albert King" box:
3rd string 12th fret
3rd string 12th fret, bend to blue note
3rd string 14th fret
2nd string 13th fret
2nd string 15th fret
1st string 13th fret
1st string 15th fret
1st string 15th fret, bend to blue note

Lessons 4, 5 and 6:

For an extended blues scale, using the lesson 1 D scale as an example, add a second blue note on the fourth string between the C and D. This one (a major seventh relative to the base D) only needs to be about 12 cents lower than the fret above it to sound harmonious, so even if you cheat and fret that one on the 11th fret, it's not too bad. But if you bend it from the minor seventh just below it on the 10th fret, it sounds even better.

So lessons 4, 5 and 6 are a repeat of lessons 1, 2 and 3 but also add the second blue note for an expanded blues scale.
Bend the lowest note on the 4th string for lessons 4 and 5, and the lowest note on the 2nd string for lesson 6.
Remember to bend the second "blue note" slightly more than the common/first one, almost reaching the major seventh.

Experiment with bending on, pre-bending, and bending off, until you get a good feel for these microtonal notes.

Questions? Was this too technical?


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Post subject: Re: Blue note and expanded blues scale
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 8:32 pm
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Pretty technical.


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Post subject: Re: Blue note and expanded blues scale
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:05 pm
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IMO, the best way to learn and practice blues is to simply screw around with the scale enough over a song and listen to figure out what sounds good and what doesn't. All the blues greats (like SRV, Buddy Guy, Clapton) learned in manner similar to this. Blues isn't about theory, it's about feel. Overthinking blues will get you nowhere. My old band teacher was a jazz head and played sax very well and knew a crapton of theory. I remember him saying that he needed to "unlearn" some of his theory because he had to play blues at a gig once and just couldn't "feel" it. Just my opinion though. Everyone learns stuff differently.

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Post subject: Re: Blue note and expanded blues scale
Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:56 am
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All good and interesting info; but, it might be too heavy for a diddley bow. :lol:

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Besides, Robert Johnson and the Devil might have simplified it. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Blue note and expanded blues scale
Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:04 am
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Sorry your getting mostly criticism arth, I'm actually a really big theory nut too honestly, and I enjoy this stuff, and I'm sadly able break apart the blues scale into each individual note and know how they work like you did here. Blues just ain't the place for this stuff. I'd actually be interested if you did a lesson like this, but more about jazz and bebop-esque scales and modes. That'd be pretty cool imo. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Blue note and expanded blues scale
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:13 pm
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There is also a blue note between the minor 3rd and Major 3rd, bend the Major 2nd up between them.


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Post subject: Re: Blue note and expanded blues scale
Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:59 am
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I really wish i had that level of knowledge of theory. I think it would be very helpful to understand the mathematics of what is pleasing to the ear. This isn't the kind of mind set that I would use while improvising leads, but I have always been troubled by my lack of music education.

Many years ago I asked my dad the age old question "who do you think is a better musician? The guy that has a natural feel for what sounds right and just plays it without knowing why, or the person who studied the theory and plays each note with theoretical purpose". His answer was the obvious one " a natural musician who also took the time the study the technical and theoretical aspects of his craft" .

I really envy your understanding of the subject and wish I could get more out of this type of information. My only excuse is that just about every other aspect in my life i.e. work and hobbies has been highly technical, requiring a lot of study. My escape has always been music, something I could just turn off my brain and play. I deliberately didn't take an educated path to playing guitar, I really regret that now.


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Post subject: Re: Blue note and expanded blues scale
Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:45 am
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Quote:
I really wish i had that level of knowledge of theory. I think it would be very helpful to understand the mathematics of what is pleasing to the ear.

Not much math needed. The cliff notes version is that we tend to like harmonies where the ratios between the frequencies of notes can be described as two small numbers, like 3:2 or 4:3. But our common "equal temperament" scale used on pianos and guitars doesn't have many of those. The fifth is very close, and the octave is a perfect 2:1. So those sound especially powerful.

So we bend and reach a few more that sound powerful and good. You don't need to know why to know it sounds good, or using it for good effect.
But if you know why, it might lead you to experiment a bit more. :)


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Post subject: Re: Blue note and expanded blues scale
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:54 am
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This is just my own personal opinion of course, but personally I think how much theory a given person needs to know pretty much depends on the person, what and how they play and their own goals.

The simple truth of the matter is that there have been some truly astounding players over the years who really knew VERY little theory...Stevie Ray Vaughan certainly comes to mind. What's more is that for many (dare I say most) forms of contemporary music, a ton of theory really isn't needed at all. In my own case for example, I play mostly blues, classic rock and oldies...yea, I learned a lot of that stuff (theory) in my younger days, especially back when I took private lessons, but the fact of the matter is that I just don't use hardly any of it. If I were to truly analyze my own playing (which I try to avoid...at least to that level of analysis), for the VAST majority of material I play, I'm almost never outside of a good ol' pentatonic scale...and mostly your standard minor pentatonic. I may throw in a couple of minor notes from time to time to spice things up a bit and if I'm working a Southern Rock or even the very occasional country tune, I may jump to a major pentatonic, but that's really about it. That said, again I play mainly blues, classic rock and oldies...if my aspirations were jazz or classical, then a more intimate understanding of theory might be called for. I have tremendous admiration for guys like McLaughlin and DiMeola, however that's just NOT the stuff that I play. What's the point of being able to improvise over a C dim Aug 13th, if all I'm playing is "Johnny B. Goode" (in G major), LOL!!!!!

The simple truth is that I've forgotten A LOT of the stuff I learned as a kid...because I simply don't use it. For me, it's a lot like algebra...I STILL have that damned quadratic equation taped inside my scientific calculator from my college days and in all my years as an artist, graphics designer, musician, photographer...I haven't used it once! Yea, some folks get off on knowing all that theory...just as some folks get off on complex math equations (I think their called "math teachers", LOL), but for the rest of us mere mortals, it's just not that important at all.

To put this in perspective, as it turns out, now that my family if finally into the new digs and we've moved to a new town, I happen to be putting together a little blues project and at the immediate moment, I happen to be looking for a second guitar player. As a guy who has over 30 years playing experience myself, YES, I absolutely want someone who knows the difference between the key of E and the key of A. YES, I absolutely want someone who understands what a "I-IV-V" is...at least so far in that if we're doing a tune in "A", that the 4th is D and the 5th is E. The rest of that stuff? To be honest, I'm simply MUCH more concerned about someone who can play and who's willing to work their sound/tone/volume into "the band". You really don't need a tone of theory to play well and conversely, knowing a ton of theory doesn't guarantee that you can work well with others. I'd much rather work with someone who can simply play well, understands the dynamics of working in a band and is easy to get along with, rather than someone who knows an ungodly ton of theory and acts like a total prima donna...no one likes to work with people like that.

I would also add that to me at least, it's also about "feel" and I believe that's somewhat harder to define. The simple fact is that there's just soooooooo much more to music than the esoteric nuances of knowing how a given note relates to a given chord or sequence of chords. In this case, I might invoke the character of someone like the ever debatable Malmstein...I'm sure the guy knows a ton of theory, BUT his playing is so totally lacking in other areas. Someone like Carlos Santana can say more with a single well placed note than Yngwie can with a thousand. To me, a VERY large part of music is about evoking an emotional response and NOT just "notes". In short, a "scale", no matter how well or how precisely played (or how quickly it's played) is not "music". It's -1- element of music, but it's NOT the music itself. There's also issues like dynamics as they apply to the rise and fall of the "mood" of a given piece of music. And of course there's "tone" as well...why for example would a guitar sound better for a given musical part than say an oboe or a tuba? I suspect a really good tube player could probably learn the solo for Hendrix's "All Along the Watchtower", BUT...would that REALLY have much wide spread appeal to most folks? LOL! Likewise, a Les Paul cranked thru a Marshall stack would be unlikely to provide the same sense of feel on a tune like Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries" as the tuba does..."context" is a very important consideration regarding such debates.

Again, I think for most forms of contemporary music at least, feel is far more important than theory...a lot of great players can indeed feel their way thru a tune, but that's often something that generally goes beyond most forms of technical analysis. As my wife has often said, "it's not what you know, it's how you use it".

So like I said, I really do believe that ultimately it depends on who you are, what you play and what your own aspirations are.

As to "why" certain music, certain sounds and even certain notes affect us the way they do, I suspect there are probably full books written on that subject, but for myself what it really comes down to is simply; personal taste. As an artist for example, why do some people like myself enjoy the work of the great masters like Leonardo da Vinci or Caravaggio, while others prefer the chaotic abstract dribblings of someone like Jackson Pollak? (In my day, we called that a "drop cloth"! LOL!) For that matter, why do some people favor the color red over the color yellow while others still prefer "puce"? Likewise, why do some folks like blues or jazz or classical while others prefer (shudders) (c)rap and hip-flop? We could spend years arguing "nature vs. nurture" here, but personally I think that a good deal of it does come down what a given person might have been raised with. In my earliest days, my father listened to a lot of classical, while my mother liked Elvis and Chuck Berry....all of which I still like (except for my father's affection for opera...blech!). My older brother liked (and still likes) a lot of that late 60's/early 70's stuff like The Beach Boys, The Beatles and Frankie Valey & The Four Seasons...which I also like. Later in my teen years, my closest friends listened to a lot of stuff like The Who, Pink Floyd and Eric Clapton which also had a tremendous impact on me (although oddly enough, it was actually my father who bought my first Clapton record for me..."I Shot the Sheriff" on 45, which I also still have). By the time I was in my late teens/early 20's, my musical tastes were pretty well formed and while they have continued to grow and expand, that foundation is still very much there.

So as to the question of "why"...honestly...beats the hell out of me! LOL! I don't really think that needs a tremendous degree of analysis - I like what I like...and that's enough for me.



These are, as always, just my own not-so-humble opinions.


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Post subject: Re: Blue note and expanded blues scale
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:54 am
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After typing out my little dissertation there yesterday, my wife also pointed out something I missed...

"The guitar", when compared to a great many other instruments, has one very distinct advantage when it comes to all this stuff about theory. For all intensive purposes, it's all the same! LOL! Let's say for example that you're playing a highly typical A minor pentatonic scale...that scale, in terms of fingering, is EXACTLY the same as a G minor pentatonic, a C minor pentatonic, an F minor pentatonic, yadda, yadda, yadda. The same goes for a major pentatonic scale...sure the notes are placed over the chords differently (which again is more about "feel") and you're playing at a different fret for the minor pentatonic, but it's STILL the same fingering. The same goes for chording as well...if you play an A major bar chord, it's the EXACT same fingering as a G major bar chord...knowledge of the actual notes that make up the chord aren't really THAT important because it's the SAME chord in terms of how you use your fingers.

For better or worse, I think this is why a great many people can get away without knowing much theory at all as guitar players. If you were to ask me right now, I honestly couldn't tell you what notes are in an A minor pentatonic...or for that matter, I couldn't even tell you what notes are in an A chord. I can figure it out if need be, but for the vast majority of material I play, it's just not essential at all. This is just my own personal opinion, but in my mind...for most forms of contemporary music...it's much more about finger patterns than it is about "notes"...and how those finger patterns work against a given series of chords is once again more about feel than anything else. In terms of a A minor pentatonic vs. G minor pentatonic, when your playing, it doesn't really matter THAT much if one of those scales uses "A, C, D, E, G" and the other uses "G, Bb, C, D, F" because dang...you're fingers are effectively doing the exact same thing either way. It's just not something that most beginners (in terms of rock, blues, country, etc.) really need to know to get them playing.

What's more is that for myself (and a good many other players as well), when I'm playing, I am NOT sitting/standing there thinking "let's see...ok...I just played a root note of A, so now I need to play a D followed by a C followed by maybe an E or a G"...if you're really thinking about stuff like that, there's a better than average chance that you're not really playing. This whole thing about being a guitarist is really more about stuff like "muscle memory" than it is about anything else (thus the need to "practice", so you're fingers KNOW where to go on the fretboard, LOL). Other than thinking about what key I'm in at the beginning of a given tune, I just don't think too much about what I'm playing, beyond how it feels and how it sounds.

I don't mean for this to sound rude or disrespectful towards anyone, however stuff like that is one of the problems I've LONG had with a lot of so-called music teachers. In my very earliest years of playing, I had teachers who sat me down with those books (back in the day it was Sam Fox Modern Guitar Method, later followed by the ever notorious Mel Bay) and to be perfectly frank, it just didn't mean squat. I didn't want to play "notes" and "scales"...let alone Little Brown Jug or When the Saints Go Marching In, I wanted to play music...mostly the stuff my older brother was listening too back in the day (lots of stuff like The Beach Boys, The Beatles, etc). That was one of the BIG reasons I quit playing when I was a kid...and I suspect it's the reason A LOT of beginners walk away. Later in my teens when I came back to guitar (after buying my own electric), I was fortunate enough to have a teacher who sat me down and instead of the idiotic books I had been subjected to years earlier, he gave me a hand written finger pattern for that A minor pentatonic scale and he did a 4 track recording for me of Clapton's "Cocain", with the vocals and lead removed, so I could just jam over the top of that. Again I mean no disrespect to ANYONE here, that one single generic scale finger pattern has taken me infinitely further than ANY of those modern guitar method books ever could have. I've LONG forgotten the vast bulk of all that theory, because I just don't use most of it, but that finger pattern...I use that every time I play!

At the end of the day, I'm a very big believer in "we learn by doing". I know there's folks out there who get off on the mathematics of all the theory, but for myself at least, it's about playing. I think there's A LOT of folks out there, beginner or otherwise, who will benefit more from simply sitting down with the basics and loading up some jam tracks of Youtube than they can by learning a bunch of otherwise irrelevant notes, scales and theory. Some theory is important...it's nice to know what key you're playing in, but I again think that how much of that one needs to know is only pertinent to a given individual's aspirations.

...again I have to very much look at it like algebra - what's the point of learning all that stuff if you're never really going to use it?


Again...just a few more of my own personal opinions.


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Post subject: Re: Blue note and expanded blues scale
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:52 pm
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Music theory is nothing like algebra, theory is a way of talking about, explaining, and communicating the subject of music.

We musicians use it all the time wheather we know it or not. An example would be if someone said blues in the key of A starting on the five (V), if you understand that then you understand theory.

I study it, and use it all the time with great reward, and benefit. There's no big mystery to it or anything, just a theory. It helps to put names to things, it gives you a way to understand music.

Music theory is very important in my opinion.


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Post subject: Re: Blue note and expanded blues scale
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:53 am
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Algebra would probably compare better to notation than theory.

Algebra: letters and symbols are used to represent numbers and quantities in formulae and equations

Notation: series or system of written symbols used to represent numbers, amounts, or elements in something such as music or mathematics

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Post subject: Re: Blue note and expanded blues scale
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:21 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
Algebra would probably compare better to notation than theory.

Algebra: letters and symbols are used to represent numbers and quantities in formulae and equations

Notation: series or system of written symbols used to represent numbers, amounts, or elements in something such as music or mathematics


Yeah, except that in algebra, what the symbols represent is variable. In music, tone notation is fixed[*]. "D" can never refer to a note that's 440 Hz.

Also, much of Western music notation was based on religious use, where the concept of zero was resisted for centuries. The whole I-VII notation, while transposable unlike the tone notation, is one-off, making it confusing as hell to those with a grasp of mathematics. All because zero was abhorred, and they counted up the Ionian scale (screw all other scales) starting on 1.
I really wish that outdated and hard-to-comprehend system could be replaced with something more sensible and zero based, like everything else around us. Then, perhaps, fewer people would treat music theory as the plague.

I think a mathematics based model might in many ways be easier to understand.
What is a power chord? That's when your second string[**] vibrates 3 times for each 2 times of the first string!
Much easier to understand, I think, than calling it a "fifth" to symbolize that the second note is 7 half-notes up, or 4 notes up if the fundamental is the base note in an Ionian scale. Add one because the scale can't be zero-based, because zero is a void, and a void is of Satan. Or was, back in medieval times.

[*]: Except for "B" which means different things depending on where you live. Which was interesting when I moved to the US, and a music teacher told me to play a B, and I played a B. No, no, play a B, he said. Which was what I did. B in the notation used in most of Europe is what an American would call a B flat, and what Americans would call a B, is called a H in most of Europe. Except where it's called si (for Sancte Iohannes) or ti.

[**]: As in the second string being the other string, not the "second string" as in B string (or H string[*]). The whole naming of the strings with the 1st string being the treble string was also done by a demented monkey. As the notes go up, the string number goes down? That does not make much sense, and hinders simple calculations.


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Post subject: Re: Blue note and expanded blues scale
Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:23 pm
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12 fifths do not resolve in an octave.
The Pythagorean gap is slightly more than an octave

The tritone is a common modulation tool since J.S. Bach

Any note can become a blue note
by slightly raising or lowering its pitch

This is common knowledge


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Post subject: Re: Blue note and expanded blues scale
Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:44 pm
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There used to be a female singer, Um Kultum.
She was so famous, 5 mio people joined her funeral.

She sang out of the pythagorean system in maquams,
similar, but way more sophisticated than tetrachords.

There are more than 360 7-note scales in the chromatic system.

So keep an open mind


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