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Post subject: Cannot tune guitar
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:51 am
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Hi
sorry to bother you again but again I have problem that I don't know to resolve since I'm new in guitar world and I try to learn.
I have change tremolo bridge system with saddles also (saddles are vintage type for Fender) and strings are Fender also. To tune I use Korg GA-1 tuner connected with guitar with cable.
And I manage to tune any single string green needle are in middle, but when I play all strings together sound are terrible also string G(3) sound strange even if tuner show green needle in middle.
I need help I don't know what I done wrong.
Please any tips, any advice, if is possible on mail: boris.teskera@yahoo.com.

Thanks & Regards
Boris


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Post subject: Re: Cannot tune guitar
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:07 am
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On your previous question (https://forums.fender.com/viewtopic.php?t=110561) you got a very good piece of advice: "Have your guitar checked by a competent guitar tech".

It seems that there's something wrong with your guitar (maybe intonation, maybe string height, maybe something else), but since you're new at setting up guitars, I don't think you can give enough correct information for a reliable web diagnose.

It's a lot easier to learn the basics if you can start with a perfectly set up guitar - that's the competent guitar tech's job. Then you can make changes and test their effect - and if you make a note of what you do, it's easy to return to the original.


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Post subject: Re: Cannot tune guitar
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:51 am
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Since you are admittedly new to the guitar world perhaps you simply lack an understanding of exactly what happens with a tremolo equipped guitar.

It's possible jamttis is entirely correct and you need a complete setup.
However, it's also possible you THINK you are in tune when you are not.
A "floating" trem (technically a vibrato) uses springs (under the backside cover plate) to counter string tension.
As you tune a string, its tension increases which pulls the bridge up and stretches out the springs.
This movement of the bridge as you tune has the effect of changing the state of tune of all five of the other strings.
After you go through all six and tune them up you have to go through all six again because every time you tune one it changes the others.
You keep going through all six until the strings and springs eventually find an equilibrium at standard tuning.
With brand new strings it can take quite a number of times as they tend to stretch a little bit.
The stretching is a semi-permanent physical deformation in the steel, the limits of which are related to the properties of the steel used.
The result is that they stretch some at first but then they stop stretching.

You may want to see if this is actually what is happening when you tune up.
If it is then you need to keep retuning until it stabilizes.
If this is not the case then you need a setup as jmattis indicated.

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Post subject: Re: Cannot tune guitar
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:14 pm
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^^^^^ This
You can't just tune each string and be done.
There are a few methods to get through quickly, but the simplest for now is that you will need to retune each string several times.
As you tighten a string, it reduces the tension on the others. If you start at the low E and work to the high E, when you return to the low-E it will be flat (or maybe sharp). It can take a few passes to get them all in tune.

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Post subject: Re: Cannot tune guitar
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:59 pm
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Regarding the floating trem/tuning problem, I like to tune the first 5 strings a tiny bit sharp and the last one up to pitch. It still takes a few passes to get in tune, but it speeds up the process.


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Post subject: Re: Cannot tune guitar
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:35 pm
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Oh, I think we all do that on the first and second rounds.

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Post subject: Re: Cannot tune guitar
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:38 am
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BorisT wrote:
Hi
sorry to bother you again but again I have problem that I don't know to resolve since I'm new in guitar world and I try to learn.
I have change tremolo bridge system with saddles also (saddles are vintage type for Fender) and strings are Fender also. To tune I use Korg GA-1 tuner connected with guitar with cable.
And I manage to tune any single string green needle are in middle, but when I play all strings together sound are terrible also string G(3) sound strange even if tuner show green needle in middle.
I need help I don't know what I done wrong.
Please any tips, any advice, if is possible on mail: boris.teskera@yahoo.com.

Thanks & Regards
Boris

============================
Strange thing happened, beside Korg GA-1 I have also small tuner that is mounted on the top of guitar neck.
Since I have problem with tuning G string I try with this cheep tuner and he show me that G string is way out of tune (Korg show that is in tune), so I remove cable from Korg and guitar and try to tune without cable by sound and it look like is better to tune without cable, now guitar sound OK.
Can someone explain what happened, why tuner with cable is not precise if you compare without cable tuning.

thx


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Post subject: Re: Cannot tune guitar
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:08 pm
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I could be several things.
You may have a faulty cable.
You may have a faulty tuner.
You may simply have a low battery in your tuner.
It could be something is stuck on your G-string, some kind of foreign material that is confusing the tuner.
Maybe something like dried egg yolk or something else you may have been eating.

It's probably a failed tuner.
You should look into the TC PolyTune.
It's quite accurate and very easy to use and it also acts as a quick and easy mute switch.

TC PolyTune

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Bob Seger and I were practicing playing chess together one time.
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Post subject: Re: Cannot tune guitar
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:08 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Oh, I think we all do that on the first and second rounds.

12-15 year old me had no idea. :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Cannot tune guitar
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:03 am
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Adding to what BMW said.
When tuning w/ a pedal tuner & cable, ensure your tuning to the middle pickup w/ volume and tone controls turned to maximum. This will offer the best tuning across all three pickups. Use the shortest cable possible to connect to the tuner. Never use a battery operated pedal tuner w/o connecting to a wall wart-remove battery.
If your having trouble tuning the open G, drop down a step and tune to the A (2nd fret of the G string). This removes the nut, string tree and tuner from the situation. Once you have suceeded w/ this tuning, try lubing your nut, string tree and ensuring your properly wrapping/winding the tuner post when installing new strings.
I actually prefer tuning w/ a headstock tuner, but then fine tune by ear across common notes in the 1st position.


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Post subject: Re: Cannot tune guitar
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:23 pm
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The G string on modern guitars has long been notoriously difficult for players to find some kind of compromise in tuning that comes close to satisfying the open string and the fretted string.
There have been many discussions about this over the years and the usual arguments have to do with the fact that frets are parallel to each other and the strings are all equal length whereas a piano sees each string having a different length, thereby having different lengths between intervals on every string.
We compensate for this somewhat with adjustable saddles but it is not a perfect system by any means and it never can be.

Sheldon Dingwall uses a different approach which incorporates angled bridges and nuts and fanned frets.
He still uses an adjustable bridge and his guitars do seem to be less of a compromise.

Another argument that frequently comes up is the fact the G string is the first one in the transition from wound strings to solid strings and this is why we almost always see a familiar pattern in the positions of the saddles after intoning to zero.

Both of these observations and arguments have plenty of merit but neither of them does much to help a guitarist fighting the issue.

There is a partial workaround which is supposed to help but still not be perfect.
I have yet to try it but this discussion has brought it back to my mind and I may do so in the near future.

The plan is to intone the G string 1 cent sharp at the 12th fret and then tune the open string to 1 cent flat.
The idea here is that our ears will usually tolerate a string that is 1 cent flat in relation to the others.
Sharp is a different story.
Most people's ears don't like the sound of 1 string being slightly sharp in relation to the others.
Regardless of the reason why, the G string is particularly problematic and if we tune an open G tuned 1 cent flat we may notice but it won't be aggravating until we move up the fret-board and the fretted G gets flatter, eventually becoming 3 to 4 cents flat by the 22nd fret and roughly 2 cents at the 12th.
Obviously, that 1 cent sharp intonation is meant to keep the string between zero and 1 cent flat between the nut and the 12th fret and also to lessen the flatness above the 12th.

If I try it I will find this thread and report back.
If anyone reading this has heard of it and tried it themselves it would certainly be appreciated if they could chime in here.

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Post subject: Re: Cannot tune guitar
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:13 am
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I miss one very important detail what is correct step:
1.) string height
2.) intonation
or first intonation then string height.
I know this question sound strange to you but like I sad I'm new in guitar world.
thx


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Post subject: Re: Cannot tune guitar
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:00 am
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With just these two, it's first string height, then intonation.


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Post subject: Re: Cannot tune guitar
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:03 am
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jmattis wrote:
With just these two, it's first string height, then intonation.


Thanks


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Post subject: Re: Cannot tune guitar
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:24 pm
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The theory I heard about the whole "g string doesn't play well" thing is as follows:

First you had acoustic guitars. Steel string guitars had 4 wound strings and 2 not wound (as they still do today).

Then electric guitars were invented. In the early years (supposedly) they would use the "A" from an acoustic set of strings as the "E" in the electric set of strings, since the electric called for a lighter gauge. So:
A (wound) becomes E
D (wound) becomes A
G (wound )becomes D
B (UNWOUND) becomes G
E (unwound) becomes B

... and then they'd add a very thin string as the high E string.

And supposedly they put up with the unwound G string on electric guitars for a long time until a guitar string company said hey this doesn't make sense. How about:

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