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Post subject: Stacking combo on the 1x12 cab?
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:32 pm
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Thinking of buying the combo now, and the 1x12 cab later.

Quick question: Is the combo made to easily stack on top of the 1x12 cab? Can I run both the 10' and the 12' speakers at the same time? Are they designed to work well together?

Doc


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Post subject: Re: Stacking combo on the 1x12 cab?
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:49 am
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Doc Waters wrote:
Thinking of buying the combo now, and the 1x12 cab later.
Quick question: Is the combo made to easily stack on top of the 1x12 cab? Can I run both the 10' and the 12' speakers at the same time? Are they designed to work well together?
Doc



Gotta be more specific as to which Super Champ you have
and your output settings of the amp's watts & ohms
You'll need to total speakers' ohms and put them in serial or parallel
when you have two cabinets. There are plenty of online guides.

So, to answer your question, yes you can - and - do it correctly.

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Post subject: Re: Stacking combo on the 1x12 cab?
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:26 pm
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Toppscore wrote:
Doc Waters wrote:
Thinking of buying the combo now, and the 1x12 cab later.
Quick question: Is the combo made to easily stack on top of the 1x12 cab? Can I run both the 10' and the 12' speakers at the same time? Are they designed to work well together?
Doc



Gotta be more specific as to which Super Champ you have
and your output settings of the amp's watts & ohms
You'll need to total speakers' ohms and put them in serial or parallel
when you have two cabinets. There are plenty of online guides.

So, to answer your question, yes you can - and - do it correctly.


:D sorry, Toppscore. I guess I kinda got ahead of myself there.

I am thinking of buying the brand new Super Champ X2. But rather than buying the head model and the matching Super Champ X2 1x12 enclosure. I thought I would buy the combo model (with a ten inch 8ohm speaker) and then add on the SCX2 enclosure later (with a 12 inch 8 ohm). I was just wondering of they built the two so that you could physically sit the combo on top of the enclosure (as you would the head model). AND if they built it so that you could run the both the 10 inch in the combo and the 12 inch in the enclosure at the same time.

However, I just looked at the manual again, and realized that there isn't an external speaker out, only the "speaker out" (which is the same one that the speaker in the combo connects to). I thought I had read that it had both a "speaker out" and an "external speaker out", and that when you ran the external speaker it didn't cut out the main speaker in the combo. But it would appear that I was confused with the "line out".

So, as I think you were alluding too, that's easily solved with a little creative wiring.

Thanks for the input Toppscore.

Doc


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Post subject: Re: Stacking combo on the 1x12 cab?
Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:37 am
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Doc Waters wrote:
Toppscore wrote:
Doc Waters wrote:
Thinking of buying the combo now, and the 1x12 cab later.
Quick question: Is the combo made to easily stack on top of the 1x12 cab? Can I run both the 10' and the 12' speakers at the same time? Are they designed to work well together?
Doc
Gotta be more specific as to which Super Champ you have
and your output settings of the amp's watts & ohms
You'll need to total speakers' ohms and put them in serial or parallel
when you have two cabinets. There are plenty of online guides.
So, to answer your question, yes you can - and - do it correctly.

:D sorry, Toppscore. I guess I kinda got ahead of myself there.
I am thinking of buying the brand new Super Champ X2. But rather than buying the head model and the matching Super Champ X2 1x12 enclosure. I thought I would buy the combo model (with a ten inch 8ohm speaker) and then add on the SCX2 enclosure later (with a 12 inch 8 ohm). I was just wondering of they built the two so that you could physically sit the combo on top of the enclosure (as you would the head model). AND if they built it so that you could run the both the 10 inch in the combo and the 12 inch in the enclosure at the same time.
However, I just looked at the manual again, and realized that there isn't an external speaker out, only the "speaker out" (which is the same one that the speaker in the combo connects to). I thought I had read that it had both a "speaker out" and an "external speaker out", and that when you ran the external speaker it didn't cut out the main speaker in the combo. But it would appear that I was confused with the "line out".
So, as I think you were alluding too, that's easily solved with a little creative wiring.
Thanks for the input Toppscore. Doc



Amp heads are more fun.
Following is a family group photo I took last week:


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Post subject: Re: Stacking combo on the 1x12 cab?
Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:41 pm
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Now, that's what i call a family photo! :D


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Post subject: Re: Stacking combo on the 1x12 cab?
Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:44 pm
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Doc Waters wrote:
Now, that's what i call a family photo! :D




Haha!
Getting to know them has been fun.
Was doing a tour of the 1994 Tone Master, yesterday.
Instant over-drive break-up. Faster than any amp I have ever played WITHOUT pedals.
Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: Stacking combo on the 1x12 cab?
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:56 pm
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Hi Doc...if you end up doing this please issue a post on how...I am a newbie and want to try this but i am a little gun shy.. :D 8)


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Post subject: Re: Stacking combo on the 1x12 cab?
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:39 am
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Doc Waters wrote:
Thinking of buying the combo now, and the 1x12 cab later.
Quick question: Is the combo made to easily stack on top of the 1x12 cab? Can I run both the 10' and the 12' speakers at the same time? Are they designed to work well together?
Doc



Doc. Why not go to a shop and look at the speakers caps' tops
with the combo on top?

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Post subject: Re: Stacking combo on the 1x12 cab?
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:46 am
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Doc Waters wrote:
:D sorry, Toppscore. I guess I kinda got ahead of myself there.
I am thinking of buying the brand new Super Champ X2. But rather than buying the head model and the matching Super Champ X2 1x12 enclosure. I thought I would buy the combo model (with a ten inch 8ohm speaker) and then add on the SCX2 enclosure later (with a 12 inch 8 ohm). I was just wondering of they built the two so that you could physically sit the combo on top of the enclosure (as you would the head model). AND if they built it so that you could run the both the 10 inch in the combo and the 12 inch in the enclosure at the same time.
However, I just looked at the manual again, and realized that there isn't an external speaker out, only the "speaker out" (which is the same one that the speaker in the combo connects to). I thought I had read that it had both a "speaker out" and an "external speaker out", and that when you ran the external speaker it didn't cut out the main speaker in the combo. But it would appear that I was confused with the "line out".
So, as I think you were alluding too, that's easily solved with a little creative wiring.
Thanks for the input Toppscore. Doc


Just as I was thinking. Split the chassis speaker wire into two connectors.
But, you will need to measure the speaker ohms and have twice the ohms
for each speaker as the amp's out put. If the amp output is 8 ohms,
each speaker will need to be 16 ohms each (etc.). Otherwise, you may
burn out your output transformet.

Also, solid state amps may have different rules. Gotta check on that.
Maybe you need not fear anything but having enough power to drive two speakers.
Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: Stacking combo on the 1x12 cab?
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:31 pm
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Toppscore wrote:
Doc Waters wrote:
Thinking of buying the combo now, and the 1x12 cab later.
Quick question: Is the combo made to easily stack on top of the 1x12 cab? Can I run both the 10' and the 12' speakers at the same time? Are they designed to work well together?
Doc

Doc. Why not go to a shop and look at the speakers caps' tops
with the combo on top?


Toppscore, I would love to, but they aren't yet available in my part of the Canadian backwoods. LOL.

But I did go to my local shop and they are expecting them in the future. HOWEVER they did have a Vibro Champ XD that they wanted to clear out. It's the little brother of the Super Champ, 5 watts with an 8" speaker, and runs at 4 ohms. Which is perfect, cause my old 4x12 cab with Eminence speakers runs at 4 ohms too - a match made in heaven. I was going to wait for the X2s to arrive, BUT they made me an offer i couldn't refuse and I snapped it up.

Because it's the XD and not the new X2, it's the older DSP technology. It has the original digital voices - some of which are no longer available in the X2 Champs - but they sound great - like the Acoustasonic, the JazzKing and Fender MetalHead. The X2 has the newer Mustang voices and uses editable/importable Fuse presets - which I have on my Mustangs - and love! The X2 also has some other well thought out improvements over the XD, like the clean channel that bypasses the DSP voices, and more!

But, like I said - they made me an offer that I couldn't refuse. And, for now, I'm a happy camper. The Vibro Champ XD is a great little amp, and has only reaffirmed my desire to own a Super Champ X2 as well, someday. One can never have too many amps in the Family Photo :D

I hope Fender continues to expand their Vintage Modified line. I think with the X2 they have shown that they are listening to their customers, and incorporating the features their customers want, at a price people can afford. Way to go! Looking forward to a Deluxe Reverb X2 with a tubey clean channel and a second channel with FUSE presets. Just try to stop me from buying that puppy!

Doc


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Post subject: Re: Stacking combo on the 1x12 cab?
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:52 pm
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chrisfleury1 wrote:
Hi Doc...if you end up doing this please issue a post on how...I am a newbie and want to try this but i am a little gun shy.. :D 8)

Hi Chris
Here's what i would do:

1) Talk to someone who knows what they are talking about. Which ain't me. :)
I have never been afraid to tinker, but I am more Dr. Frankenstein than qualified technician.

But here's how I understand it. PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE, fellow forum members, correct me if I am leading Chris astray.

The trick is that the SCX2 wants a total 8 ohm speaker load. Problem is the 10 inch speaker in the combo is an 8ohm AND the 12 inch speaker in the SCX2 enclosure is 8 ohm (BTW this whole discussion holds true for any other 8 ohm cab). So, if you unplug the 8ohm 10 inch internal speaker and plug in any 8 ohm external cab, that can handle the beefy 15 watts RMS 8) , NO PROB. BUT, if you want to run both the internal and externals speakers simultaneously, you will have to wire up some kind of connection that will produce a combined load of 8 ohm before it is plugged into your head.

So here's the deal with speakers of equal ohms. 2 speakers wired in Series doubles the load, wired in parallel it cuts the load in half. Lots of info on the Web about how to wire in series and parallel.
IE:
Two 8 ohm speakers wired in series creates a total impedance of 16 ohms
Two 8 ohms wired in parallel cuts the impedance in half to 4 ohms.

So how do you get the 8 ohm internal speaker plus the 8 ohm external speaker to equal 8? :?

You could splice into the internal wire, BUT that would void the warranty. AND there is an easier way to combine the two speakers in parallel. Buy a 1/4" mono Y adapter equipped with two 1/4" mono jacks and one 1/4" mono plug. The Y adapter takes two 1/4 inch plugs and connects them in parallel to one 1/4 inch jack. This is a parallel connection, so if the speakers are of equal ohms, the result would be half the ohms.

BUT, like Toppscore says, you would need to be running two 16 ohm speakers. Which means replacing the internal speaker (again voiding the warranty) and you would NEVER be able to plug the internal speaker into the head just on it's own again. Because it's 16 ohms.

So, back to the two 8 ohm speaker scenario. :idea: THIS IS ONLY MY THEORY. DO NOT TRY THIS UNTIL VERIFIED BY AN EXPERT.

If you connect the first 8-ohm speaker to the first 1/4 inch plug of the Y adapter, and then connect the second 8-ohm speaker to the second 1/4 inch plug of that same Y adapter, the resulting combined impedance at the plug would be 4 ohms. TOO LITTLE FOR the 8 required by the SCX2. You need to get another 4 ohms into the chain. How to do that the easiest way? I am not sure. I guess you could wire a 4 ohm resistor into the circuit (in series) between the Y jack and the amp head. Again, kinda Dr. Frankenstein.

Perhaps there is some 4 ohm gizmo/adapter you can buy at Radio Shack. I just don't' know. This is the point at which we go back to my original plan:

GET ADVICE FROM EXPERT - and he'll show you the real way to do it. If connected properly it should work well. Connected wrong, and tube amps don't take too kindly to it. Think "fried". :shock: Although solid state amps are more forgiving, this is a hybrid tube/solid state, so darned if I know what the result would be. Better to be safe than sorry.

Can someone else take this discussion from here and get the 4 ohms into 8? the easy way! Or, suggest an alternative.

Doc

PS: One last thought: Although I brought the subject up initially, I guess the safest alternative is either buy the head and not the combo to begin with, or if you want to use the combo with a stack, just unplug the internal (as intended by manufacturer) and attach any 8 ohm external cab (of at least 15 watts), and you are laughing. :wink:

I can just see the Fender designers shaking their heads right now, wondering why us guys always have to make mountains out of mole hills. "Hey, we built it so they can just unplug and plug in. What more do they want?" :roll:


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Post subject: Re: Stacking combo on the 1x12 cab?
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:11 pm
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Doc Waters wrote:
Toppscore wrote:
Doc Waters wrote:
Thinking of buying the combo now, and the 1x12 cab later.
Quick question: Is the combo made to easily stack on top of the 1x12 cab? Can I run both the 10' and the 12' speakers at the same time? Are they designed to work well together?
Doc

Doc. Why not go to a shop and look at the speakers caps' tops
with the combo on top?


Toppscore, I would love to, but they aren't yet available in my part of the Canadian backwoods. LOL.

But I did go to my local shop and they are expecting them in the future. HOWEVER they did have a Vibro Champ XD that they wanted to clear out. It's the little brother of the Super Champ, 5 watts with an 8" speaker, and runs at 4 ohms. Which is perfect, cause my old 4x12 cab with Eminence speakers runs at 4 ohms too - a match made in heaven. I was going to wait for the X2s to arrive, BUT they made me an offer i couldn't refuse and I snapped it up.

Because it's the XD and not the new X2, it's the older DSP technology. It has the original digital voices - some of which are no longer available in the X2 Champs - but they sound great - like the Acoustasonic, the JazzKing and Fender MetalHead. The X2 has the newer Mustang voices and uses editable/importable Fuse presets - which I have on my Mustangs - and love! The X2 also has some other well thought out improvements over the XD, like the clean channel that bypasses the DSP voices, and more!

But, like I said - they made me an offer that I couldn't refuse. And, for now, I'm a happy camper. The Vibro Champ XD is a great little amp, and has only reaffirmed my desire to own a Super Champ X2 as well, someday. One can never have too many amps in the Family Photo :D

I hope Fender continues to expand their Vintage Modified line. I think with the X2 they have shown that they are listening to their customers, and incorporating the features their customers want, at a price people can afford. Way to go! Looking forward to a Deluxe Reverb X2 with a tubey clean channel and a second channel with FUSE presets. Just try to stop me from buying that puppy! Doc



A 5w/4ohm Champ is going to drive a 4x12 speaker cabinet?
Can I get a video of this, please?

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Post subject: Re: Stacking combo on the 1x12 cab?
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:14 pm
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Doc Waters wrote:
chrisfleury1 wrote:
Hi Doc...if you end up doing this please issue a post on how...I am a newbie and want to try this but i am a little gun shy.. :D 8)

Hi Chris
Here's what i would do:

1) Talk to someone who knows what they are talking about. Which ain't me. :)
I have never been afraid to tinker, but I am more Dr. Frankenstein than qualified technician.

But here's how I understand it. PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE, fellow forum members, correct me if I am leading Chris astray.

The trick is that the SCX2 wants a total 8 ohm speaker load. Problem is the 10 inch speaker in the combo is an 8ohm AND the 12 inch speaker in the SCX2 enclosure is 8 ohm (BTW this whole discussion holds true for any other 8 ohm cab). So, if you unplug the 8ohm 10 inch internal speaker and plug in any 8 ohm external cab, that can handle the beefy 15 watts RMS 8) , NO PROB. BUT, if you want to run both the internal and externals speakers simultaneously, you will have to wire up some kind of connection that will produce a combined load of 8 ohm before it is plugged into your head.

So here's the deal with speakers of equal ohms. 2 speakers wired in Series doubles the load, wired in parallel it cuts the load in half. Lots of info on the Web about how to wire in series and parallel.
IE:
Two 8 ohm speakers wired in series creates a total impedance of 16 ohms
Two 8 ohms wired in parallel cuts the impedance in half to 4 ohms.

So how do you get the 8 ohm internal speaker plus the 8 ohm external speaker to equal 8? :?

You could splice into the internal wire, BUT that would void the warranty. AND there is an easier way to combine the two speakers in parallel. Buy a 1/4" mono Y adapter equipped with two 1/4" mono jacks and one 1/4" mono plug. The Y adapter takes two 1/4 inch plugs and connects them in parallel to one 1/4 inch jack. This is a parallel connection, so if the speakers are of equal ohms, the result would be half the ohms.

BUT, like Toppscore says, you would need to be running two 16 ohm speakers. Which means replacing the internal speaker (again voiding the warranty) and you would NEVER be able to plug the internal speaker into the head just on it's own again. Because it's 16 ohms.

So, back to the two 8 ohm speaker scenario. :idea: THIS IS ONLY MY THEORY. DO NOT TRY THIS UNTIL VERIFIED BY AN EXPERT.

If you connect the first 8-ohm speaker to the first 1/4 inch plug of the Y adapter, and then connect the second 8-ohm speaker to the second 1/4 inch plug of that same Y adapter, the resulting combined impedance at the plug would be 4 ohms. TOO LITTLE FOR the 8 required by the SCX2. You need to get another 4 ohms into the chain. How to do that the easiest way? I am not sure. I guess you could wire a 4 ohm resistor into the circuit (in series) between the Y jack and the amp head. Again, kinda Dr. Frankenstein.

Perhaps there is some 4 ohm gizmo/adapter you can buy at Radio Shack. I just don't' know. This is the point at which we go back to my original plan:

GET ADVICE FROM EXPERT - and he'll show you the real way to do it. If connected properly it should work well. Connected wrong, and tube amps don't take too kindly to it. Think "fried". :shock: Although solid state amps are more forgiving, this is a hybrid tube/solid state, so darned if I know what the result would be. Better to be safe than sorry.

Can someone else take this discussion from here and get the 4 ohms into 8? the easy way! Or, suggest an alternative.

Doc

PS: One last thought: Although I brought the subject up initially, I guess the safest alternative is either buy the head and not the combo to begin with, or if you want to use the combo with a stack, just unplug the internal (as intended by manufacturer) and attach any 8 ohm external cab (of at least 15 watts), and you are laughing. :wink:

I can just see the Fender designers shaking their heads right now, wondering why us guys always have to make mountains out of mole hills. "Hey, we built it so they can just unplug and plug in. What more do they want?" :roll:



My question is: do the rules change for solid state amps' output transformers.
I have so many tube amps, I cannot recall if the tube amps OT
is treated the same way as a solid state amp's OT.
I am interested to get that answer.

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Post subject: Re: Stacking combo on the 1x12 cab?
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:05 pm
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Quote:
My question is: do the rules change for solid state amps' output transformers.
I have so many tube amps, I cannot recall if the tube amps OT
is treated the same way as a solid state amp's OT.
I am interested to get that answer.


I think I might be able to help. Awhile back, I took my own advice and asked an expert whether I could use my 130 watt 4 ohm solid state amp head with an 8 ohm speaker cab.

He said yes. But if I did, the effective watts would only be about half as much (65 watts), because the resistance is twice as much. Here's his reply:

"Since you will be using it for smaller gigs and practice, where presumably you do not need volume, you could use an 8 ohm speaker and parallel it with an 8 ohm power resister. Each would see a maximum or 65 watts. A better solution I think would be to just use an 8 ohm speaker by itself. A Solid State output stage does not mind higher impedance loads because it is current that causes the heating that kills output transistors, higher impedance means less current. The amp would only pump about 65 watts into an 8 ohm load.

Tube output stages and transistor output stages have different failure modes, so can tolerate different things.

A transistor output stage has an output impedance low enough to be considered a voltage source with a current limit. P=I^2R and R=E/I(thats ohms law) you can see that raising R lowers I if E remains the same. So 130= I^2 * 4 > 32.5=I^2 so I=5.7 amps E=22.8 volts at max power

If we sub in a 8 ohm load, and now solve for P we get 22.8= I * 8 > I= 2.85amps P= 2.85^2 * 8 P=65 watts, and current is halved, heating is proportional to the ^2 of current, so power is down by half, but the killer heat is down by a factor of 4.

It does not work this way with tube output stages."

Does that help, Toppscore?

I'm not sure, however, what it would do to these hybrid tube/SS combinations. I think I'll just stick with the recommended ohms to be safe.

Doc

PS: I haven't had a chance to try my 5 watt Vibro Champ with my 4 ohm 4x12 cab yet. But I think that since I am only interested in using it for recording and practicing, it should be just fine. It should sound a lot fuller, and I am actually anticipating a bit more volume, as i will be able to crank it. But I'll let you know how I make out. Don't be fooled by the 5 watts. This isn't a kiddies toy. This is a serious little amplifier. Much more than you would expect. It's bigger and heavier than my Mustangs, and built like a tank. It's a little guy with a professional attitude and a big voice. I suspect it's the same story with your Super Champ.


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Post subject: Re: Stacking combo on the 1x12 cab?
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:47 am
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Doc. Thanks for the input.
I am thinking a 4ohm amp will drive two 8ohm speakers.
Does this fit into the equation?

Also, a 5-watt amp and a 130-watt amp, both with 8-ohms or 4-ohms
will be working an 8-ohm speaker differently, don't you think?
Toppscore.

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