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Post subject: The risks of digital amplifiers
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:54 pm
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I just want to start a discussion on reliability of digital amplifiers because I think it's an interesting topic.

So did anyone ever thought about the risks there are with digital amps? For example: the computer in it can crash while you're at a gig. If I had a digital amp that would be a constant concern. Nobody else with this concern? Those digital amps sound great nowadays but how about the stability?

Also, what if you would need a repair? The technicians from now aren't familiar with computers. They are used to analog circuits. They should take lessons in programming and computer science I think.

I think digital amps are more difficult to change parts of than classic analog amps. There will be thrown away a lot more amps that doesn't work anymore because only one part of it is broken and can't be replaced anymore. In that way they would contribute to the electronic waste that is a huge problem nowadays.

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Post subject: Re: The risks of digital amplifiers
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:26 pm
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You may find the following threads of interest:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=98290

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=99362

There are also several other posts from those who have actually performed repairs or mods to their Mustangs. Some were simply replaced jacks, others resoldered cold solder joints, etc.

Overall, the Mustangs seem to be quite durable.

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Post subject: Re: The risks of digital amplifiers
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:21 pm
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The only glitch I've seen with my Mustang I V2 is when I rotate the Preset knob quickly through several presets, and somehow the one I stop at has acquired a Pitch Shifter effect. There isn't a Pitch Shifter on the presets that I would have passed through either.
I just turn it to any other preset and then back again, and it's okay. It may be that it only happens when the USB cable is hooked up and FUSE is running, but I can't reproduce the problem on demand to check that out.

Quote:
There will be thrown away a lot more amps that doesn't work anymore because only one part of it is broken and can't be replaced anymore.
I agree, and it's sad. I used to collect tube radios from the '40s and '50s, and you can still get new parts for them. More importantly, there are still some AM stations to tune them to. New gear with proprietary integrated circuits won't even have value as antiques, other than to display on a shelf.

On the other hand, modern electronics could be installed in a guitar amp to make it useable because the speaker and cabinet still work. It just wouldn't be a "proper" vintage amp.

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Post subject: Re: The risks of digital amplifiers
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:26 am
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From my experience as a gigging musician I definately prefer digital amps over tube amps for reliability and durability. It doesn't take much bumping around to break things on a tube amp. And tube amps seem to be far more succeptable to environmental and electrical influences than are digital amps. When you're carting this equipment around on a weekly basis that's a pretty big consideration.

Of course there are far more people qualified to work on tube amps, but the quality level of their workmanship and troubleshooting abilities can vary quite a bit. For digital equipment you have to take it to a certified repair facility, but the repairs will be consistent as it's simply a matter of modular replacement with factory components.

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Post subject: Re: The risks of digital amplifiers
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 2:39 am
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Fennycaster wrote:
So did anyone ever thought about the risks there are with digital amps?

Yes. They are orders of magnitude smaller than the risk using valve amps. And I can kick my Mustang around and drop it onto the stage without breaking valves left and right.

Quote:
For example: the computer in it can crash while you're at a gig. If I had a digital amp that would be a constant concern. Nobody else with this concern?

No. The Mustang's "computer" is about as complex as the one in a DVD player.

Quote:
Also, what if you would need a repair?

If the problem lies in the analog part (jacks, power supply, power amp, connections, potis, speaker) you can just repair it like you would in an analog amp.
If it's in the digital part, you would probably sell the Celestion speaker on ebay and throw the rest out and buy a new one.
For the price of a single Fender valve amp (plus replacement valves, plus maintenance over time) I can buy four or five MIIIs and stock them as replacements and it STILL would be cheaper in the long run.

Yes, it's wasteful, but that's just how mass production versus repair cost work these days in pretty much any field.


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Post subject: Re: The risks of digital amplifiers
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 6:35 am
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this is all MHO of course:

nothing is more unpredictable than a tube amp. Tubes, (pre and mains) can just blink out in a heart beat, fine one day, out to lunch the next. then you have the task at hand of locating which tube just went out on ya, or swapping them all out, (with Mains tubes on most amps, that's a trip to an amp tech.)

for mustang repairs, just go to an authorized fender repair guy, and then, see what the Warranty will save you $$ wise.


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Post subject: Re: The risks of digital amplifiers
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:36 pm
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Tube amps with issues; don't even get me started. :shock:

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Post subject: Re: The risks of digital amplifiers
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:33 pm
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HIO wrote:
Tube amps with issues; don't even get me started. :shock:

Tube amps misbehaving . . . two whole chapters of my life.

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Post subject: Re: The risks of digital amplifiers
Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:15 pm
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I've come around to digital in recent years ... first and foremost because of the weight difference on an aging back to be fully honest. But the second issue is that my first experience with solid state amps was in the late 60s and early 70s and they were horrible back then. Sound was awful and they were prone to abrupt death whereas you might figure a way to keep a tube amp limping along if you learned some tech.

Equally, plenty of tube techs around back then, but where I grew up (upstate NY), you weren't going to find any remotely local place for solid state amp work. I had an amp blow out on me only to find out that I'd have to ship it to the maker's sole US authorized repair center in California. It would be about a month turnaround IF they decided I didn't abuse it. And one form of abuse, they made clear: playing at rock concert volumes. Ooops.

The 80s sound (a sound I still don't care for) depended in some respects on how a solid state amp distorts in comparison to what a driven tube does. Amps were more reliable but just not my sound. But that was then and this is now -- I've been very impressed with the Mustang I I got recently. In fact, I find myself more and more leaving my Champ SCXD home in favor of the Mustang. I guess it's a case of digital being able to emulate the overall sound of tubes much better. I'm not saying that any particular emulation is 100% like the original tube rig, only that it's a pleasing sound and I can work with it.


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Post subject: Re: The risks of digital amplifiers
Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:22 pm
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A good high joules rated surge protector and/or line power conditioner and I've got full confidence in my Mustangs!

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Post subject: Re: The risks of digital amplifiers
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:56 am
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philipk wrote:
I've come around to digital in recent years ... first and foremost because of the weight difference on an aging back to be fully honest. But the second issue is that my first experience with solid state amps was in the late 60s and early 70s and they were horrible back then. Sound was awful and they were prone to abrupt death whereas you might figure a way to keep a tube amp limping along if you learned some tech.

Equally, plenty of tube techs around back then, but where I grew up (upstate NY), you weren't going to find any remotely local place for solid state amp work. I had an amp blow out on me only to find out that I'd have to ship it to the maker's sole US authorized repair center in California. It would be about a month turnaround IF they decided I didn't abuse it. And one form of abuse, they made clear: playing at rock concert volumes. Ooops.

The 80s sound (a sound I still don't care for) depended in some respects on how a solid state amp distorts in comparison to what a driven tube does. Amps were more reliable but just not my sound. But that was then and this is now -- I've been very impressed with the Mustang I I got recently. In fact, I find myself more and more leaving my Champ SCXD home in favor of the Mustang. I guess it's a case of digital being able to emulate the overall sound of tubes much better. I'm not saying that any particular emulation is 100% like the original tube rig, only that it's a pleasing sound and I can work with it.


Your journey toward digital modeling is not dissimilar from mine and I think that many of those that rigidly dismiss digital amplifier modeling are basing it on what it may have sounded like in one of the bygone eras. But digital modeling, just like computers, has been evolving as more powerful processors and better algorithms have been developed.

It's important to understand that DSP processors don't determine the sound in and of themselves. They provide the underpinning capability for the process of "convolution" which is examining the delta or difference between an input signal and an output signal let's say on a given tube amplifier, or a pick attack then providing the parameters or processing logic that can be selectively exploited by a given modeling algorithm. Some forms of emulation can be quite processor intensive such as cabinet emulation. Until fairly recently we haven't had processors that were powerful enough to do this sort of thing effectively. But just as with computers, things have been changing pretty rapidly.

Manufacturers all develop their own approaches in this regard and are typically pretty closed mouth about how they do it as they don't want others to exploit their intellectual property, but it's clear that within the last 5 or 6 years there's been a real quantuum leap in these areas resulting in the release of modelers that do more than just emulate the basic differences in amps and cabinets, but react and respond to pick attacks and tube amp anomolies like SAG and BIAS. That's a LOT of processing in real-time, but such is the way faster processors.

Just look at the increases in realistic graphics in the gaming industry if you want to see what kind of things these faster processors can do. Only 10 years ago manufacturers struggled with making human hair appear realistic. Now it's done as a matter of course.

So when I hear someone dismiss modeling, in all likelihood it's like complaining about a computer's capabilities that was built in 2005 and really has no bearing on what's happening today...or probably tomorrow.

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Post subject: Re: The risks of digital amplifiers
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:38 am
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All good points. I was at a Line 6 open house earlier this year -- pretty fascinating, even what they can tell you. They measure an amp's response at dozens of different points in the circuitry and under a variety of conditions and then build a digital profile of that mimics how the real amp responds. Today they will have hundreds of data points while it might have only been dozens a decade ago. A couple key points come out of that:

- they're modeling the amp they have, not the one you remember from 1968. No two amps age the same and so they concede that anyone can legitimately say "that sounds nothing like my XYZ from back in the day." While they don't go out of their way to find a model that's way different than what a particular make in general should sound like, they do go for one that they find "interesting." That means it could have some unique sonic characteristic that isn't usual for the model.

- volume is the modeler's friend. They conceded (two of us asked) that they don't model amps being played at soft Jazz or lounge volumes. Rock level volumes do tend to bury any lack of perfection in a model. They say that in time they'll be using 10,000 points instead of 1,000 ... and then maybe soft Jazz will be there.

- It's all in the ear. In the end, Line 6 decides if a model is there by A-Bing the digitally simulated circuit with the real model. When most agree that they can't tell the difference, the model is considered good. But again -- much higher volume than I'd ever play at and that doesn't mean that absolutely no one could detect any difference. Now you get into needing to get the design into production and sales as opposed to spending even more to try to dial in absolute perfection.


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Post subject: Re: The risks of digital amplifiers
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:49 am
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The info from Line 6 is interesting and explains a lot about my impressions of their modeling.

Years ago I had a Spider amp and have had a POD in the past as well. What they said about modeling the amp at higher volumes and not at jazz or lounge levels explains a lot about the impressions I had about their modeling that prompted me to replace it with a Fender Mustang.

I had always felt the Line 6 gear was more oriented toward high gain rock modeling than it was pure amp tone that responded appropriately to increases in gain and pick attack like most regular tube amps. Fender being Fender thay have never been very open to discussing their approach toward modeling, but it's clear to me they've come upon some way of doing it that's far more precise in terms of gain and breakup and how those things can vary with circuit design. Given Fender has more than enough experience in designing and developing traditional amps designs, they have apparently figured out a way to incorporate those differences in design into their modeling that goes beyond just typical convolution of the signal which is what Line 6 often talks about. I'm sure it still incorporates a range of data point measurements but that wouldn't account for how their models of a Twin, a Deluxe, or a HiWatt vary not only in breakup but in tone as gain is added. To date theirs is the only modeling approach that seems to do this accurately that I've come across, including a Kemper.

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Post subject: Re: The risks of digital amplifiers
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:26 am
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Fennycaster wrote:
So did anyone ever thought about the risks there are with digital amps? For example: the computer in it can crash while you're at a gig. If I had a digital amp that would be a constant concern. Nobody else with this concern?

I can't help but notice your signature ..... Hot Rod Deville. Is that your baseline of what a 'reliable' amp is? If so, then absolutely not, no concern about my digital amp here at all. :mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: The risks of digital amplifiers
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:05 am
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dunedindragon wrote:
Your journey toward digital modeling is not dissimilar from mine and I think that many of those that rigidly dismiss digital amplifier modeling are basing it on what it may have sounded like in one of the bygone eras. But digital modeling, just like computers, has been evolving as more powerful processors and better algorithms have been developed.

It's important to understand that DSP processors don't determine the sound in and of themselves. They provide the underpinning capability for the process of "convolution" which is examining the delta or difference between an input signal and an output signal let's say on a given tube amplifier, or a pick attack then providing the parameters or processing logic that can be selectively exploited by a given modeling algorithm. Some forms of emulation can be quite processor intensive such as cabinet emulation. Until fairly recently we haven't had processors that were powerful enough to do this sort of thing effectively. But just as with computers, things have been changing pretty rapidly.

Manufacturers all develop their own approaches in this regard and are typically pretty closed mouth about how they do it as they don't want others to exploit their intellectual property, but it's clear that within the last 5 or 6 years there's been a real quantuum leap in these areas resulting in the release of modelers that do more than just emulate the basic differences in amps and cabinets, but react and respond to pick attacks and tube amp anomolies like SAG and BIAS. That's a LOT of processing in real-time, but such is the way faster processors.

Just look at the increases in realistic graphics in the gaming industry if you want to see what kind of things these faster processors can do. Only 10 years ago manufacturers struggled with making human hair appear realistic. Now it's done as a matter of course.

So when I hear someone dismiss modeling, in all likelihood it's like complaining about a computer's capabilities that was built in 2005 and really has no bearing on what's happening today...or probably tomorrow.
Clearly explained. Well written. You nailed it!

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