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Post subject: Re: Guitar Rig 5 with Mustang IV
Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 2:15 pm
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Just to add some clarity here.

As Scott-uk mentions the operating system has TONS of chores to do...not just Windows but any multitasking platform, linux, mac...you name it. It's the nature of the beast. They have memory managemen and cleanup; memory reorganization, memory allocation (which is quite a heavy burden), thread management, inter-process communications and any number of other housekeeping tasks..all of which can cause intermittent latency and dropouts during heavy use.

But even beyond that, software is ALWAYS slower than hardware. Programs executed in hardware execute 2 to 3 times faster than software that's loaded into memory and then executed...even compiled software. There are many reasons for this that are too technical to get into here, but that's why critical or real-time applications are always hardware embedded for speed of execution. This is what you sacrifice when you go to something like Guitar Rig 5 or any other software based modeling software. It's typically not that significant if you're doing recording because the workflow is very different and you don't really notice the background processing unless you're monitoring it with Task Manager or the Performance Monitor. When you're gigging it's all real-time and there's no stopping or re-do's.

I'm baffled as much as scott-uk on with your comments about not hearing much difference in the Mustang models, but if you feel you need a wider range of modeling capabilities you'd have less risk using a Kemper for gigging than software running on a PC or a Mac.

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Post subject: Re: Guitar Rig 5 with Mustang IV
Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 2:27 pm
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this has turned negative toward my original question. I understand that not everyone will agree with what I'm trying to do, that's the power of opinion. But on the other side, if it didn't work, people wouldn't actually be doing it. There are a few bands that play live with GR software. I'm not saying they rely solely on it, but it is definitely part of their gear.

Again, understanding this is a Fender forum for the Mustang, there will be some prejudice against any other outside source that's not the Mustang. I like the option of having a lot of different sounds at my disposal. I don't want to be stuck with given options, I like have my pick of what I want to use.

Have you ever compared the "modelling" effects compared to the real thing? I'd like to hear what the real world versions sound like compared to the Mustang's version.

Everything metal or hard sounding, to me sounds like either Def Leppard or ACDC or even at the hardest Accept on the Mustang IV, no matter what amp effect is chosen. Like I said, someone show me a spot on Whitesnake Still of the Night preset and I will shut down every idea I ever had about adding additional effects to my sound.

Consider that last part a challenge.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Rig 5 with Mustang IV
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 1:35 am
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Quote:
this has turned negative

Absolutely not. We've answered all your original questions, and given you further tips on how to make sure your proposed set-up works. People have also then added their personal opinions on your proposal and suggested alternatives, all in the spirit of helping you understand the various options and their pros and cons. Everything said is in the spirit of being positive and constructive, to give you the best information possible on which to base your decisions.

Quote:
this is a Fender forum for the Mustang, there will be some prejudice against any other outside source that's not the Mustang

Again, absolutely not. In one of my replies I suggested you look at other manufacturers' products if the Mustang isn't doing it for you, and dunedindragon has also pointed you at other non-Fender equipment. We all recognise that everyone's requirements are different, and that different equipment thus suits each of us.

Quote:
Have you ever compared the "modelling" effects compared to the real thing?

Yes. I have two valve/tube amps as well as the Mustang. I agree the Mustang doesn't sound identical, but it does capture the overall spirit/intent/tone of the valve amps very well - in particular the very different sounds that my two valve amps have (a VOX and a Marshall, if you're curious). I concede I haven't done direct comparisons with the high-gain / "metal" amps and models, and I don't tend to use those myself so can't comment on their characteristics.

Quote:
Whitesnake Still Of The Night ... Consider that last part a challenge

I'm not sure I like the confrontational tone of that. The question back to you is: what was the actual equipment used on the recording of that song? That's always your starting point for setting up a preset on the Mustang. I'm not a Whitesnake expert, but as far as I know John Sykes was the Whitesnake guitarist at the time, and used both Marshall and Mesa/Boogie amplifiers. My understanding is that he *probably* used the Mesa/Boogie amp (a Coliseum / Mk3 head) into a Marshall cab for the Whitesnake stuff. So I'd start with the "American 90s" amp model, into a 4x12G or 4x12C cab emulation. You should research what other effects and post-processing were done on the sound too, that will help you fine-tune appropriate settings.

I'll also reiterate that playing style is just as important as amp. If you don't play like John Sykes, you won't sound like the original recording. I just listened to "Still Of The Night" for curiosity; there are a lot of subtleties of fingerstyle in the guitar playing that would need to be reproduced to get the same sound. That's no criticism of your playing personally (which of course I've never heard) - I've found the same thing myself. As an example, I think the Fender Super Champ (whether real or model in the Mustang) sounds rubbish when I play. Then I hear Eric Clapton make it sound fantastic. The way I play just isn't good enough.

It sounds like you've recently acquired the Mustang and are looking for other stuff (Guitar Rig, interface, etc) to put with it. Can I re-iterate a question I asked in an earlier post that may help us take this forward constructively: what equipment were you using before you had the Mustang? What sounds did that give you (or perhaps, didn't give you) that has made you want to change your whole rig? You imply you're a gigging guitarist, and your references to Whitesnake etc imply you like and play that sort of music, so what have you been using thus far to get that type of sound in your live performances? (Or if you're not yet a gigging guitarist but want to be, and are looking for a good equipment set-up for that, then I'll reiterate the mantra to keep it simple, at least to start with. You and your guitar playing are far more important to the overall performance than subtle differences in sound from your amplifier).

Finally, to be clear: no-one (well, certainly not me) is going to be negative or critical of your equipment choice. The most important thing is that you have fun playing your guitar. All we can do is offer opinions, advice and factual information to help you with that. But just do whatever makes you, and your audience, happy.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Rig 5 with Mustang IV
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 2:53 am
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scott-uk wrote:
no-one (well, certainly not me) is going to be negative or critical of your equipment choice.

Well, I am. Not so much about his equipment choice, but about the fact that he has never played his guitar through Guitar Rig and already knows it will sound better than the Mustang.

Maybe you should use the Mustang as an USB interface into Guitar Rig as a first step and see if it can even deliver the sound you expect?

That said, I would never play my guitar through a PC for anything but recording. Especially in live gigs you need a 100% reliable, latency-free platform.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Rig 5 with Mustang IV
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 4:09 am
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My attitude with this is, you can get from New York to LA by going direct through Denver and Las Vegas. But you can also get there by going through Berlin and Tokyo. Most people would prefer the shortest route...but to each their own.

If you can't find the sound you want on the Mustang and are only speculating on getting the sound you want out of Guitar Rig 5 (which I have used by the way), then I'd suggest the shortest route. Buy a Kemper, get a sample of the Whitesnake sound you're looking for, and let the Kemper build a preset for you. Plug into the Kemper, select that preset and route it to the PA and you're done.

Sorry if that sounds critical to you, but I assumed you wanted the simplest route to LA. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Guitar Rig 5 with Mustang IV
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:07 am
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I've been following this thread since day 1, and IMHO, I don't really care one way or another what sort of rig you're preferring, It's your gear, do what you wish with it.


but this:
Have you ever compared the "modelling" effects compared to the real thing? I'd like to hear what the real world versions sound like compared to the Mustang's version.

yes, side by side, with two Fenders. with some time to kill waiting for my grandsons drum lessons, and since I know the guy very well that owns the store, I asked him if I could do some comparing using the MIII v2 and the two (at the time) right out of the box, brand new Princeton and DRRI

Mark (Store owner) admitted, he'd never done this so he was as interested.

Using just the "basic" models for both of these, and turn them up to moderate playing volumes, it was pretty crazy how close the mustang sounded to the real deal in both cases. We're the subtle differences? yes, there were

And just for yuks, we did do the "turn around, don't look, tell me which one I'm using".. it was basically down to a guess.

I'm sure if you cranked the tube amps to stage volumes you'd PROBABLY here a bit more of a disparity, but at the volumes we were using, (not too loud but NOT bedroom levels) very close by comparison.

There is also a 22w supersonic there now too, I'm tempted to try this again with that.

Now I know some of the amps you're interested in are not represented in this comparison, so it wouldn't be fair to assume that a mesa or marshall would have the same results. just thought I'd mention this.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Rig 5 with Mustang IV
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:28 am
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Well to be fair, the modelling of Fender amps is the Mustang's stronger point. I don't like the heavy "American 90s" and "Metal 2000" so much.

But I don't think using the Mustang as an active monitor for the output of another modeller (Guitar Rig in this case) will sound that good either.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Rig 5 with Mustang IV
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 6:48 am
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I didn't mean GR 5 would sound better than the MIV, I am just saying I would like to add more sounds to it. That's the bottom line, the whole purpose for my thread. I wouldn't waste the space on a topic forum with just the intention of disrespect.

I plan on keeping my amp and using it, for whatever, practice or gigging. When it comes down to it, I am a hard rock / metal cover guitarist. The reason I chose a modelling amp, is to be able to change the tone according to whatever song is next in the list. I'd like to sound as close to the original as possible with an updated effect to it. Going from say, the Doors to Blue Oyster Cult to Black Label Society. I won't be stuck with one amp, a hu and pedals and more or less sound the same for every song.

To me, adding GR5 is equal to adding new pedals or racks to my board. Nothing more. There are bands that use GR5 entirely as their sound and they do it live all of the time.

I think I should have clarified this from the beginning, but I didn't think it would be taken this far out of context.

By the way, John Sykes is my main influence. I believe my problem is that I'm unable to find my sound and I'm on a never ending search to find it. I've gone through a ton of pedals. Finding the '87 Whitesnake sound / tone is my Holy Grail.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Rig 5 with Mustang IV
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 7:55 am
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I'm hoping this isn't going to add to more confusion, but is it possible to connect the MIV to another cabinet? Like a Marshall M412A for example.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Rig 5 with Mustang IV
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 8:38 am
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you would want to keep in mind that the MIV is wired in stereo directly from the amp, to the speakers.

so you'd have to modify of course, the speaker wiring at both sides. (That Marshall isn't a stereo cab)

Also note that there are some restrictions on voiding the warranty, you may find this sort of modification would probably apply.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Rig 5 with Mustang IV
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 8:49 am
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Thanks for the reply, I definitely don't want to get into any kind of modding. I don't want to risk ruining this amp, I was just checking if there was a way to line out to it.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Rig 5 with Mustang IV
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:49 am
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There's no auxiliary speaker out on any of the combos afik.

The only Mustang that has speaker out jacks is the MV, and that's also a stereo cab.

the V2s have xlr outs, the V1s have fx loops that can be used as a line out.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Rig 5 with Mustang IV
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:58 am
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This is the back of the MIV, that's why I was wondering if it could output to another cab.

Image


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Rig 5 with Mustang IV
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 10:22 am
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Quote:
that's why I was wondering if it could output to another cab

The output sockets in your photo are all line-level signals. The Mustang combo amps do not have any power-amp outputs, and can't drive a (passive) speaker cab directly. Only the Mustang V has speaker outputs.

You could use the line-level outputs on your Mustang as inputs to another power amp, which in turn you connect to a second cab.

As a serious suggestion: if John Sykes is your guitar hero and finding his sound is your goal, isn't there a fan club or something where you could find out exactly how to do this? I'm sure he must have lots of other fans all wanting to do the same thing as you.


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Post subject: Re: Guitar Rig 5 with Mustang IV
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 12:21 pm
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scott-uk wrote:
Quote:
that's why I was wondering if it could output to another cab

The output sockets in your photo are all line-level signals. The Mustang combo amps do not have any power-amp outputs, and can't drive a (passive) speaker cab directly. Only the Mustang V has speaker outputs.

You could use the line-level outputs on your Mustang as inputs to another power amp, which in turn you connect to a second cab.


I understand now, you mean the MIV couldn't power the Marshall speakers, it would have to run out to a power amp head to power the speakers. Gotcha. That makes sense.


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