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Post subject: Low Preset Volume / High Master Vol better?
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:39 pm
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Hi Guys

I've read posts that suggest that the Mustang III (V2) amp, which I have, sounds better if the Master Volume is higher.

I'm finding that I can't even get past setting 3 without it being too loud, so wondered if you reduce the volume settings for each patch right down (most of mine are set to 9ish) and therefore have to increase the Master Volume higher would this result in a better sound than having high patch volume and low master?

Thanks
Hayz


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Post subject: Re: Low Preset Volume / High Master Vol better?
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:54 pm
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Well, a lower volume will make the master less jumpy/sensitive. You'll have a more gradual increase to the volume.

Imo, the improvement in sound when the wick gets turned up has a lot to do with the speaker, and the cabinet itself. At ultra low current levels, the speaker isn't working at it's most efficient- after all this IS a 100 watt speaker. Once you start feeding it some juice, it really comes alive. Ditto for the cab- at low volumes, it isn't adding anything.

In my experience, the first sweet spot is around 3 or 4 on the master, depending on the model and where the volume is set. Like you, this is usually far too loud for my practice room. I only get to play this loud at a store, or when I'm SURE all the neighbors are out.


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Post subject: Re: Low Preset Volume / High Master Vol better?
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:13 pm
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Yeah I think people just mean the amp sounds better at a louder volume in general. Don't think it has anything specifically to do with the Master Volume knob being on a certain number, just how much you're driving the speaker and cabinet.


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Post subject: Re: Low Preset Volume / High Master Vol better?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:28 am
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A high preset volume and low master volume means you're maxxing-out the DSP headroom (not in a bad way, just using it to its limit), and not making any use of the analogue sections thereafter.

Lowering the preset volume reduces the risk of over-maxxing the DSP headroom (which would be a bad thing), and also means you're using more of the 'space' in the analogue sections. In general I think this is better overall, getting a good balance between the two parts of the amp.

Think of it as barely amplifying a strong signal (first scenario above), versus more amplification of a medium signal. The end result is the same, but you're allowing all parts of the amp to work equally. Just an opinion.

Finally, as noted by pyroman and worth re-emphasising: if you can work with the master volume control at a higher setting (by lowering the volumes earlier in the chain), you have finer-grained and less jumpy control of your overall volume.


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Post subject: Re: Low Preset Volume / High Master Vol better?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:00 am
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I like the Master at around 4 or 5 max and then balance out the patch levels, the amp is plenty loud at that level if you need it!


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Post subject: Re: Low Preset Volume / High Master Vol better?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:33 am
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Thanks Guys, that's all really helpful.

Cheers
Hayz


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Post subject: Re: Low Preset Volume / High Master Vol better?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:30 am
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I have a IV and a III both v1

I notice there's definitely a few trip points with the master volume on both of mine.

it takes a little bit of finagling with to get it set right.

once you gets past 2 or so it smooths out and is more predicable.

for a 1x12 combo, the MIII is one loud little critter.


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Post subject: Re: Low Preset Volume / High Master Vol better?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:58 pm
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scott-uk wrote:
A high preset volume and low master volume means you're maxxing-out the DSP headroom (not in a bad way, just using it to its limit), and not making any use of the analogue sections thereafter.

Lowering the preset volume reduces the risk of over-maxxing the DSP headroom (which would be a bad thing), and also means you're using more of the 'space' in the analogue sections. In general I think this is better overall, getting a good balance between the two parts of the amp.


Wow now that is interesting :shock: - first time I have heard this Scott. I guess I had not noticed since I would consider my preset volumes to be quite conservative - I've set them for live work and not tweaked them since. Did you work this out with your ears or have you got some sort of inside here?


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Post subject: Re: Low Preset Volume / High Master Vol better?
Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:43 am
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Did you work this out with your ears or have you got some sort of inside here?

Neither. Just my opinion based on theory and common sense. Most electrical things work best in their mid-range.

At the top-end, you risk overdriving the circuit - whether that's analogue or digital. Obviously for valve guitar amps that's often what's wanted. But for the Mustang's DSP and transistor analogue power amp (and indeed any other non-valve amp), that wouldn't be good. So logically, one wants to avoid maxing-out either part of the amp.

At the quiet end of the scale, you lose sensitivity and control, and add proportionally more noise to the signal (whether through digital quantisation or good-old-fashioned analogue noise). So again logically, that extreme should be avoided too.

Also, electrical equipment doesn't amplify all frequencies linearly. The effect is more apparent at the extremes (although in modern equipment, probably very slight even then). So this is another reason, at least in theory, to avoid using equipment (or the various stages within a piece of equipment) at its limits, either min or max.

Thus, having both the preset volume and the master volume in their mid-range would seem to be better overall than having one volume up high and the other down low. I can't guarantee it's going to sound better, but you can be assured it isn't going to sound any worse.

Although, on the Mustang I think the potential DSP problems mentioned above are in fact minimal. Some posts a couple of years ago from Fender suggest the levels in the Mustang's DSP are such that they allow enough headroom for everything to be on maximum and still not exceed the DSP limit. And any quantisation noise is going to be tiny/inaudible compared to other background noise - it's a theoretical issue rather than a real one.

So this could all be a moot point and not make much, if any, audible difference at all. It might sound exactly the same having the preset and master at 1/10, 5/5 or 10/1. In that case, I'd still go with the 5/5 approach if only because all the dials are then in the best position for fine-grained adjustment - eg going from 5 to 6 gives a much smaller volume increase than going from 2 to 3 (the same amount of dial movement).


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Post subject: Re: Low Preset Volume / High Master Vol better?
Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:23 pm
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Scott, OK its not quite as subtle as I thought you were saying originally, so thanks for the clarrification. Turning any SS amp up to 10 is probably not a good idea. Never had the Mustang past 4!

I remember some years ago helping a young band to set out. I let them borrow my PA but they used there own SS Guitar amps. They insisted on turning them up to 10 - my goodness did those amps squeal :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Low Preset Volume / High Master Vol better?
Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:31 pm
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It's called "gain staging" and all it means is that if you try and keep volumes at all stages about equal, no one stage will be driven so hard as to cause unwanted distortion. For example, if u have 3 stages with volume controls and with them all at 6 it's much too loud, rather than turn one of them down to 2, turn them all down equally till you have the volume you want. Thats just for the sake of example, and they don't all have to be exactly equal. Just demonstrating a point, which is that if you turn one way up and the other ones are very low, you're pushing that stage hard enough that it *may* cause unwanted distortions when that can be eliminated by turning the others up and that one down.


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Post subject: Re: Low Preset Volume / High Master Vol better?
Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:17 am
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they used there own SS Guitar amps. They insisted on turning them up to 10 - my goodness did those amps squeal

Oh the humanity....


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Post subject: Re: Low Preset Volume / High Master Vol better?
Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:58 am
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Quote:
It's called "gain staging" and all it means is that if you try and keep volumes at all stages about equal, no one stage will be driven so hard as to cause unwanted distortion

Indeed. Of course, valve/tube amps are the complete opposite. They are sometimes made with multiple pre-amp/gain stages, deliberately intended to be overdriven. One can then vary the sound/tone of the amp by overdriving one or other of the stages more than the others for different types and amounts of crunch / distortion (or overdrive them all...). For example, the Fender Supersonic amp, on its 'burn' channel, and the corresponding amp model in the Mustang, has two gain stages precisely for this purpose.

The point of mentioning that is that all equipment is different. One needs to understand the characteristics of the equipment being used, in order to set its controls for best effect. Also it's important to distinguish between the controls for the modelled amp inside the Mustang, versus the Mustang's own controls.


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Post subject: Re: Low Preset Volume / High Master Vol better?
Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:25 pm
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Quote:
they used there own SS Guitar amps. They insisted on turning them up to 10 - my goodness did those amps squeal


Quote:
Oh the humanity....


LOL In the end they got plenty of gigs and couple of them went on to be pro's. I was just glad to help them out with my time and gear...


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