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Post subject: Limited effects options one patch - Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:20 pm
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Hi Guys

I'm new to Amps and pedals and wondered how people cope with the limited effects one patch offers?

I have the 4 and 2 foot switches and a separate cry baby so switching effects on and off aren't my problem.

It's more how do you start with a clean sound then switch to distortion with the option of them adding a phaser during the track.

I'm guessing with separate pedals the option are endless and extremely flexible, but wondered how folk were getting around the issue when using the amp and built in FX.

Cheers
hayz


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Post subject: Re: Limited effects options one patch - Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:43 pm
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The Mustangs offer four simultaneous effects (plus amp modelling), which might not sound much but does cover most real-world situations. So I'm not sure I'd say the options are "limited" and I don't think it's really an "issue." The permutations available with the amp are vast, you just need to understand how to set things up.

Quote:
how do you start with a clean sound then switch to distortion with the option of then adding a phaser during the track

There are at least two ways to do this. The first is to create three presets - one with your clean sound, one with the distortion added, and a third with both distortion and phaser (or whatever combination you want). You can then use the footswitch to select each preset: either assign them to the "Quick Access" (QA) buttons (4-button footswitch in mode 1), or put the presets in adjacent numerical positions and use the Up/Down buttons to move between them (4-button footswitch in mode 2, or 2-button footswitch in up/down mode). You can extend this to more than three presets using Up/Down, but the QA mode is limited to three presets.

The other option is to create one preset with your basic clean sound, then add a distortion "stomp" effect to the same preset and adjust its settings to suit. But save the preset with this distortion turned off by default. Similarly, then add a "mod" phaser effect to the preset, and again save the preset with this effect turned off. Now put your 4-button footswitch in mode 3, or the 2-button footswitch in "Stomp/Mod" mode, and use the footswitch buttons to turn the "stomp" and "mod" effects on and off as required, without changing preset. (This is conceptually similar to having multiple separate stomp boxes on the floor in front of you, each of which you can individually turn on and off). Obviously this method only works if you want just one "stomp" and "mod" effect (and "delay" too if you want that). If you want to switch between different stomp, mod or delay effects, you then have to use separate presets as per the first option above.


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Post subject: Re: Limited effects options one patch - Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:54 pm
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Thanks for the detailed reply, Scott.

I understand all the above and did wonder if the answer was to create separate patches and was trying to avoid this, as I'd need to have them close in number to click/access easily and would have to move and override other patches, which I know is also possible.

I was also concerned about volume change when switching to a different patch during a gig, but guess as long as a I set the volume exactly same for each patch shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks for all your help.

Cheers
Hayz


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Post subject: Re: Limited effects options one patch - Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:45 am
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I have a slightly different approach which may or may not be useful to you.

First, I set up my 2 button switch for moving up and down through presets and I set up my 4 button switch for turning on and off the individual stomp, mod, and reverb effects. I have a number of base presets developed which are basically individual amp and effects setups and I keep them stored in my lower preset numbers. Prior to the gig I copy my base presets into presets starting at preset #40 that represet the sequence of songs I'll be playing. So preset 40 is the first song, 41 the second song and so forth. As we play through the set I'll use my 2 button switch to move up through those presets and I use the 4 button switch to control the effects in that song as we play it. So, for example, on the first song I have it set to 40 and I use the second button on the 4 button switch to turn on the stomp effect I will use for the lead. That works for 90% of the songs. Occassionally I'll have a song that has a big change in the way effects are used. In that case I'll have two completely different presets for that song and I'll switch between them using the 2 button switch, but that's generally pretty rare.

I use this approach because our band covers a pretty wide range of styles from song to song. For example the first song may be more of a 70's rock style, the next one more of a jazz style, the third one more of a country, and so forth. I also frequently change guitars between songs from a les paul, to a strat, to a gretch or the acoustic, so I'll always have the right patch in place for the guitar being used.

Ideally if you don't really vary that much in styles you could simply set up 3 or 4 basic presets based on certain amps and effects and just select the one most appropriate to the song with the 2 button switch, and turn on and off effects in the song with the 4 button switch.

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Post subject: Re: Limited effects options one patch - Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:03 am
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Thanks Roadie, that's helpful, too!

Many thanks.:-)


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Post subject: Re: Limited effects options one patch - Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:34 am
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As a further opinion: you need to think about using the Mustang differently to how you'd use a bunch of conventional stomp-boxes/pedals. With the latter, you just turn them on individually, when you want them. With the Mustang, you group the effects you want together, into presets, and switch between presets - with the further option that you can still turn the individual effects within a preset on and off too. The end result is the same, it's just a different way of working, and neither way is inherently better or worse than the other, they both have their pros and cons. You just need to think about setting things up around presets more than individual effects.

I'd second dunedindragon's approach - create a set of 'base' presets (amp models plus effects) that cover the styles you need, then once you've selected a particular preset, you can turn the individual effects within it on and off, as though the effects were separate stomp-boxes. This gets you the best of both worlds.

Quote:
create separate patches and was trying to avoid this

Don't try and avoid this; as above, this is precisely the way the Mustang works. It actually gives you a lot of control over a wide range of effects, more easily than if they were all separate.

Quote:
I'd need to have them close in number to click/access easily

Yes, that's precisely how you're supposed to do it on the Mustang.

Quote:
have to move and override other patches

Yes, that's exactly how you do it - but this isn't anything to worry about. You can save the 'factory' presets and as many of your own presets as you want, to your PC, and move them back to the amp, in any order, whenever you want. You can do this with individual presets, or once you've setup the amp in a particular way, you can backup the entire set of presets and restore them in a single operation.

Quote:
concerned about volume change when switching to a different patch during a gig, but guess as long as a I set the volume exactly same for each patch shouldn't be a problem

Again yes, that's exactly how to use the Mustang. Create all your presets, then adjust their relative volume levels to suit your need - some you'll want at the same overall volume, some you'll want louder as a 'boost.'


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Post subject: Re: Limited effects options one patch - Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:58 pm
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Thanks for clarifying Scott and for taking the time to post the additional help. I actually worked on my presets last night and seem to have every option I need now :)

One question I have is, does the volume pedal increase the master volume (I have the ESP-1 for my volume pedal) plugged into the 4 button switch input and the 4-switch into the ESP-1 (if I'm remembering correctly!) and noticed when I increase volume none of the parameters change so guessing it must be the master volume increasing and not patch volume?

Cheers
Hayz


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Post subject: Re: Limited effects options one patch - Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:52 pm
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Quote:
does the volume pedal increase the master volume

No. The EXP-1 is a separate volume control (see next para). The Mustang's master volume can only be adjusted using the Master Volume knob: the Master Volume is the only conventional knob on the amp - it really is an analogue volume that controls the signal level going into the power amp, after all the DSP trickery has finished (whereas all the other knobs are "virtual" and are used within the DSP).

The EXP-1 in Volume Mode behaves like a volume pedal that appears AFTER the amp model in the signal chain, and BEFORE any post- effects in your signal chain (ie so before the MOD, DELAY and REVERB effects, assuming you don't change the effects order with FUSE). You can't change its position in the signal chain. This EXP-1 volume control is only accessible by using the EXP-1 pedal - you can't adjust this control in FUSE or with any other knobs on the amp. If you don't have the EXP-1 plugged in, this volume control is fixed at 100% (ie it's just like the control wasn't there).

Two further important points to note are that the EXP-1 in Volume Mode isn't controlling any volume knobs of the modelled amp (this comes before the EXP-1 in the signal chain, and could change the timbre of the sound depending on how the modelled amp's own volume control behaves), nor is it controlling the overall preset Volume (which comes after all effects and has no effect on tone, it solely affects the signal level).

If you want the EXP-1 to control one of the above settings, you can do that. Put the EXP-1 into Expression Mode, and then in FUSE (or maybe on-amp with a V2 Mustang? I don't have one of those so can't check) you can select which parameter you want the EXP-1 to control: if you set "Expression Mode Behaviour" to "Amplifier" and select "VOL" for the Parameter, the EXP-1 will control the overall preset volume (ie after all amp modelling and effects). Or (eg) you could select "MASTER" for the Parameter to control the modelled amp's own Master Volume knob (which is different to the Mustang's Master Volume!), if the modelled amp has one.

Finally related to this: note that the Mustang's GAIN setting for some amp models (eg 65 Twin) actually maps to the original amp's Volume control, and the control labelled Volume on the amp model is really the overall preset volume. This sounds confusing, but makes sense if you realise that amps such as the 65 Twin didn't have a knob labelled Gain, instead its knob labelled Volume was really doing what we think of as Gain on other amps.


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Post subject: Re: Limited effects options one patch - Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:29 am
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Wow, thanks Scott a lot to get my head round here and thanks for explaining in detail.

I'm using the EXP-1 in normal volume mode for a lead boost - therefore am I assigning the best/most effective type of volume increase from those you describe above without losing tone/sound? Or should I be assigning a different parameter such as the overall preset volume as you described or would there be no difference between that and default volume mode?

Cheers
Hayz


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Post subject: Re: Limited effects options one patch - Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:59 am
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Hayz wrote:
Wow, thanks Scott a lot to get my head round here and thanks for explaining in detail.

I'm using the EXP-1 in normal volume mode for a lead boost - therefore am I assigning the best/most effective type of volume increase from those you describe above without losing tone/sound? Or should I be assigning a different parameter such as the overall preset volume as you described or would there be no difference between that and default volume mode?

Cheers
Hayz


It sounds to me like you may be over complicating things. I use a volume/wah pedal (not the EXP-1), but it's typically in the full on position. It only comes into play when I need to soften my overall volume or use it as an effect for fade-ins/fade-outs. For lead boosts I'll kick in something like the Ranger Boost pedal to increase the volume without changing the overall tone, or an overdrive/fuzz/green box/etc. pedal if I want more body, tone, or volume to the lead. It's a lot easier than trying to manipulate a volume pedal all the time.

The different amp models have different volume characteristics. Therefore when I create a base amp model I tend to play with it's channel volume and gain quite a little bit to get it to be at a comparable volume level to my other presets. The only way to do this is by ear switching back and forth between different presets and adjusting the preset's channel volume and gain. You only have to do this once when you first set them up, but by leveling out my base presets this way I can set my master volume appropriate to the room or situation in which I'm playing and all my presets will be the same relative volume. Once I have my base preset volume dialed in to be relatively equal to my other presets I select and add a stomp pedal appropriate for that preset and adjust it's tone and volume characteristics for cutting through the mix when I play a lead on that preset.

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Post subject: Re: Limited effects options one patch - Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:53 pm
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Yes' I'm sure I'm over complicating it lol

Where I'm a little stumped is I initially bought the EXP-1 to control the built in wah on my Mustang 3, but wasn't happy with the way sound in the end and bought a Cry Baby. Then I decided I needed a lead boost and didn't really need the exp-1 for anything other than a volume pedal, so now I'm using the EXP-1 to boost volume when playing lead. However adding a ranger boost sounds like a much easier option but what if my palresets already have stomp boxes and mods assigned and I can't add a ranger to boost the lead would you advise buying a separate booster pedal? I guess that would defeat the object? Cheers Hayz


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Post subject: Re: Limited effects options one patch - Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:41 am
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Quote:
over-complicating things

I agree it's best to keep things simple. On the other hand, having a full understanding of what's going on can be useful in helping you work out what that simplest final solution should be. So here's some more stuff hopefully to assist you with that.

Quote:
should I be assigning a different parameter such as the overall preset volume as you described or would there be no difference between that and default volume mode?

It depends on what aspects of the volume you want the pedal to control. You need to think about the order of things (effects, amp models, pedals, etc) in your signal chain. I'll give three examples to illustrate.

1. Volume pedal before amp model (eg as the 'level' control of a stomp effect in its default 'pre' position, or as the 'gain' control of an amp model - which, depending on the amp model, is usually a form of pre-amp volume). This will affect the raw guitar volume going into the amp model, and thus affect the amount of overdrive distortion the amp model creates, so it will change the sound as well as the volume. In fact, depending on the amp model, it may not change the overall volume much at all, instead giving you a sweep from 'clean' to 'dirty' sounds.

2. Volume pedal after the amp model, but before post-amp effects (the EXP-1's default position). This will vary the volume without changing the distortion. The key thing is that it changes the volume going into your post- effects and has no impact on the level coming out of your post- effects. This is most noticeable with delays and reverbs - if you kill the volume with the pedal, you'll cut off the main sound, but the delay and reverb 'tails' will still sound. This is usually what most people want.

3. Volume pedal at end of signal chain (eg by assigning EXP-1 to overall preset volume). This is closest to an overall master volume, and will change the volume of everything. So comparing to scenario (2) above, if you cut the volume with the pedal, it will also silence your delay and reverb tails.

So, the correct place to put the volume pedal depends entirely on what aspects of your overall sound you want it to control. As with most things on the Mustang, just experiment with various permutations until you find the sound that's right for you.

Quote:
adding a ranger boost sounds like a much easier option but what if my presets already have stomp boxes and mods assigned

It depends exactly what other stomp and mod effects you have assigned. My own view in general is to use as few effects as possible to create the sound I want. Particularly for distortion stomp effects, before adding one of those I try and get the overdrive distortion I want directly from the amp model. Personally, I haven't yet found a case where I can't do that (ie I've never needed to add a distortion stomp), I can always do it with the amp model. So that keeps your stomp free for something else, eg adding a boost.

If you already have a stomp and you really do need it, then another option is to create two identical presets, with the same stomp (and other effects), but set one of them to be louder than the other. You can do this with the preset volume, or with the various volume controls on your amp model, or with the 'level' settings on the various effects. To get your lead boost, you then just switch to the louder of the two presets.

Or the simplest solution is probably just stick with the way it appears you're currently doing it, and use the EXP-1 for your volume boost. But rather than having it vary the volume from 0% to 100%, you can set the heel and toe endpoints to be whatever level you want for your normal sound and boosted sound - eg 80% and 100%, etc (maybe that's what you're already doing?). That way, you don't have to worry about moving the pedal by the right amount while also trying to concentrate on a live performance, just move it all the way from heel to toe and back again.

But rather than talking theoretically, it might be most useful if you post your exact signal chain here (sequence of effects, amp models, etc - both in the Mustang and external devices), and explain exactly what it is you want to achieve that you can't so far (which may be as simple as "an on/off volume boost"), then someone may be able to suggest the best solution for that specific scenario. That will also then help you extrapolate to other scenarios.


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Post subject: Re: Limited effects options one patch - Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:01 am
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Quote:
It depends exactly what other stomp and mod effects you have assigned. My own view in general is to use as few effects as possible to create the sound I want. Particularly for distortion stomp effects, before adding one of those I try and get the overdrive distortion I want directly from the amp model. Personally, I haven't yet found a case where I can't do that (ie I've never needed to add a distortion stomp), I can always do it with the amp model. So that keeps your stomp free for something else, eg adding a boost.


This is really the key to keeping things simple. With the amp models available I've never had a problem getting the basic tone I want just by manipulating the channel volume, gain, and EQ. On some of my presets I do have modulation or delay/reverb effects turned on by default in some cases, but the stomp pedal is always reserved for lead boosts.

There are occassions where songs require very dramatic changes in guitar tone such as a verse that uses a phase shifter with a lot of delay and a chorus that requires a heavy rock sound. In that case I'll use two different presets and just toggle back and forth with the two button pedal.

It's easy to get mired in the minutae of all the various tools the Mustang provides, but the best approach in my opinion is to take a less is more attitude and use only what's necessary to keep things as simple as possible.

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Post subject: Re: Limited effects options one patch - Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:49 pm
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Quote:
scott-uk wrote:
but the best approach in my opinion is to take a less is more attitude and use only what's necessary to keep things as simple as possible.


+1 In a Live situation just use what you need.


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Post subject: Re: Limited effects options one patch - Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 12:16 am
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Thanks all for your input. I'm going to have a play around and see if I can replicate my favourite preset without using overdrive on stomp so it frees up the stomp for a booster.

Cheers
Hayz


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