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Post subject: Mustang III V2 - speaker vs line out volume
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:17 pm
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Just got my Mustang III V2 last week. I play in a band as well as at church, and connect to the PA via the XLR line out, while adjusting the Mustang speaker as my stage monitor.

Using the speaker at home, I went through and created a handful of presets, and adjusted the volumes so they're about the same level when switching between presets. When I connected via the XLR line out to my recording interface, I noticed a HUGE jump in volume when switching between presets -- even though they're pretty even through the speaker. I leveled the volumes via the recording interface & with the speaker muted, so it wouldn't drive the sound guys crazy when I switched presets live -- but of course now I have a huge difference in volumes between the presets when playing through the speaker.

Is there a trick that I just haven't learned yet? A setting that I haven't found? Is there a bug in the speaker emulation or some other component that makes certain patches totally different levels depending on whether you're using the line out or speaker?

I'm using software version 2.2 (the latest, as of March 2015). The Line Out Boost is still set to the factory setting (19.9%), and I haven't tried changing that setting yet. I've already done a few factory resets in the process of creating patches and getting used to the amp, and the issue remains.

I appreciate any help/tips to get this resolved.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III V2 - speaker vs line out volume
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:02 am
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Just a guess, but are you using the speaker cab emulations? I can see where different cabs would have different volumes? I just got my IIIv2 a couple of weeks ago, so I'm guessing.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III V2 - speaker vs line out volume
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:00 am
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Hey, thanks for the reply.

Yep, I'm using speaker cab emulations. They're enabled unless you go out of your way to turn them off. As I understand it (and confirmed by this signal path diagram), there are different cab sim implementations for speaker and line outs.

It makes sense that the cab sim for the speaker would need to compensate for the internal speaker's voicing as well as simulating the desired speaker, so it would need to be different from the direct out cab sim. I suspect that the problem might be somewhere in the "gain"/level/implementation of the cab sims for line out vs. speaker out. Is Fender aware / are they working on fixing this in an update? Or is there something I can do via configuration to fix it myself?

I think I could confirm that by putting the effects loop in the "looper pedal" position (after the cab sim), like the old v1 direct out trick, and then plugging/unplugging headphones to change which cab sim is used.

But I'm really hoping someone else has already identified this issue, and a fix for it. :)

[edit: fixed hyperlink to Fender's Mustang V2 signal path diagram]


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III V2 - speaker vs line out volume
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:03 pm
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For what it's worth, I've confirmed that the difference is coming from the two different cabinet simulations (for headphones vs. for speaker). I connected the Mustang to my recording interface via both XLR line out, and FX send through a DI.

Image

This captured the signal after both cab simulations, at the same time. The left channel/top track captured the "headphones" cab sim via XLR, and the right channel/bottom track captured the "speaker" cab sim via the FX send.

I just strummed a chord while rolling through a few of my own presets. I had set up these presets using the XLR line out -> recoring interface -> headphones, so the different presets sounded about the same loudness on the XLR track (top). There's a very visible and audible difference between the loudness of the different presets via the FX send track (bottom), which is exactly what I'm hearing through the actual speaker.

(edit: see updated screenshot in my reply below, with corrected markup)
Image

Being able to "see" what I've been hearing helps to confirm that I'm not imagining it, but it doesn't fix the issue. It would be great if there was better volume compensation in the cab sims, in addition to the EQ compensation for the speaker voicing. Is Fender working on this at all?

The only workaround I can think of is to use the same speaker cabinet model on every preset, but I really don't like that idea. The cabs make up a huge part of the tone shaping, and they're a big reason why each of the amp models sound reasonably "authentic."

Fender, can we possibly get customizable "headphone cab sim level" and "speaker cab sim level" controls per preset in a future update, so that they can be balanced?? That would be great!


Last edited by jwyse on Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III V2 - speaker vs line out volume
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:12 am
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Nice analysis! That's really weird. What amp/cab model were the last and last-but-one presets you recorded? Because the last preset seems pretty much bang on in both channels, and the last-but-one differs wildly.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III V2 - speaker vs line out volume
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:18 am
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Image

The arrows indicate where I changed the preset. Some of them are visually obvious, and others are less noticeable because I was letting the chord ring and/or changing to a pretty well-matched preset.

1. Brit Colour, clean (gain=2.5), 4x12G
2. Brit Colour, crunch (gain=4.5), 4x12G
3. Bassman, clean (gain=4.6), Bassman
4. Bassman, crunch (gain=8.2), Bassman
5. British Watts, clean (gain=7.1), 4x12M
6. British Watts, crunch (gain=10), 4x12M
7. 65 Dlx Reverb, clean (gain=10), 65Deluxe
8. Brit 60's, driven (gain=3.5), 2x12C

None of these presets had stompboxes, mod, or delay turned on during recording. All had reverb -- most with "large hall," and a couple with "65 Fender Spring" or "small hall."

The big volume differences between presets come when switching to a totally different cab model. There's not much difference between the clean/crunch variations of the same amp/cab, within each track.

As you can probably guess, I like amp gain more than I like overdrive pedals (especially digital models of stompboxes), so I tend to use clean/crunch variations of a preset more than I use the stompbox models.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III V2 - speaker vs line out volume
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:22 am
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nice work jwyse :) The only thing I can suggest is to get in contact with Fender directly about this. They do come on the forums periodically to answer questions and take feedback, but you will most likely get a quicker response if you reach out via phone or email:

Fender Technology Support Lab
Fender Musical Instruments Corporation
TSL@Fender.com
(800) 856-9801

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III V2 - speaker vs line out volume
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:23 am
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ChrisH1 wrote:
Nice analysis! That's really weird. What amp/cab model were the last and last-but-one presets you recorded? Because the last preset seems pretty much bang on in both channels, and the last-but-one differs wildly.


Oh, and I re-marked/numbered them, because I had missed a couple of preset changes when I was marking up the screenshot the first time. What you referred to as "last" is actually two presets (that appear to run together); the 65Deluxe and Vox models. The "last-but-one" that was so noticeably quieter in the bottom track is actually the two Brit Watts models, that also appear to run together.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III V2 - speaker vs line out volume
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:25 am
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Nice. Just to nail it down, can you try setting the British Watts preset #6 to a 65Deluxe cab and see what happens?
I'm not suggesting setting every preset to one single cab as a solution, I'm just curious to see whether it's only the cab sim.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III V2 - speaker vs line out volume
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:33 am
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ChrisH1 wrote:
Nice. Just to nail it down, can you try setting the British Watts preset #6 to a 65Deluxe cab and see what happens?
I'm not suggesting setting every preset to one single cab as a solution, I'm just curious to see whether it's only the cab sim.


Yeah, I've been thinking about doing something like that as a next step/test. I agree with you that it's not a solution, but it might be interesting to see.

I was thinking I'd set up maybe 3 presets with the exact same amp settings / different cabs, or with different amps / same cab, then make them sound about the same loudness (via one of the outputs), and then see what kind of variation I get in the other output.

I don't know what kind of conclusions I might be able to draw from that, but it might just further confirm that the cab sims are set up with different overall volumes in the headphones/speaker implementations. Guess there's only one way to find out. I'll try it later today.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III V2 - speaker vs line out volume
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:55 am
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strings10927 wrote:
nice work jwyse :) The only thing I can suggest is to get in contact with Fender directly about this. They do come on the forums periodically to answer questions and take feedback, but you will most likely get a quicker response if you reach out via phone or email:

Fender Technology Support Lab
Fender Musical Instruments Corporation
TSL@Fender.com
(800) 856-9801


Thanks for the suggestion and contact info. I've emailed them with some basic information, and linked to this thread for the details and updates. I'll post updates if they work with me to resolve this (if they don't reply here in the forums).


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III V2 - speaker vs line out volume
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:22 am
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I haven't heard a peep from Fender support (via email or forums). Is there a better way to approach them and get a response on the issue?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III V2 - speaker vs line out volume
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:24 am
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I've noticed that Issue as well and it's annoying, the best solution is to mic your amp but would be nice if they can fix the cab level so you can balance them out of the XLR out.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III V2 - speaker vs line out volume
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:10 am
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Dear jwyse,

Thanks for your information. I have forwarded it to the relating engineers and will update the forums with their feedback. Is the Amp you tested with a V1 or V2?
Thanks and please let us know if we can assist you further.


Regards,


Steven,

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III V2 - speaker vs line out volume
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:33 am
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Dear jwyse,

Thanks for your inquiry. As I continued to read through the thread I see where you stated you had not heard from anyone, did you e-mail someone direct or requested a reply through the forum?

Thanks,

Steven,

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