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Post subject: Mustang I idea.
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:48 pm
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Hey all,
Now that I have both a Mustang I V1 and a Mustang III V2 I am relegating the Mustang I to serve as my 57 Champ
and 65 Princeton Reverb amps.
The question for those who may know:

I wish to use the 57 Champ as a 1 knob amp like the original design. Would anyone have suggested settings for the gain and EQ knobs?

Knowing the 65 Princeton Reverb originally had vol, treb and bass along with the reverb and trem, could anyone
offer setting suggestions for the gain and mid knobs?

One more thing is any suggestions for recorded music that features either of these models.

Thank you in advance for any and all suggestions.
I am trying to replicate these 2 with the Mustang I because both were low watt, small speaker combo's and I think they would suit it perfectly.
Jeff


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Post subject: Re: Mustang I idea.
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:34 pm
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As far as the Champ goes, you can't really get there with a push-pull amp. The old Champs clip on the bottom half of the wave long before the top half. Only a class A amp will do that very well. You might be able to dial in a little preamp crunch to emulate it
The EQ response is a broad smooth convex curve with very low gain.

The Blackface Princeton is also very low gain with a dip in the midrange centered at 600Hz and a peak in the treble at 4k. The bass peak is wide, from 60 to 150Hz.
The ratios are Bass at .24, mid at .18 and treble at .35 if that helps.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang I idea.
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:34 am
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@TimsAudio: You do realize that the Mustang is a modelling amp and it features both a '57 Champ and a '65 Princeton model out of the box, right?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang I idea.
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:41 am
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Quote:
The old Champs clip on the bottom half of the wave long before the top half

Presumably this is something that the amp-modelling DSP in the Mustang already does? So it shouldn't matter whether the subsequent analogue parts of the amplifier can do that accurately - indeed, the analogue stages shouldn't be doing any clipping at all in a Mustang; the whole point of the amp is that all the waveform-shaping is being done by the DSP.

(Although as an aside, that's a really interesting fact about the original Champ design, thanks for sharing).

To answer the OP's question: unless someone has an original Champ and a Mustang, and the time/inclination to compare them side by side and post their results here, I doubt anyone will be able to give you an accurate answer. As with most guitar-amp settings, the answer is usually "tweak until you get the sound that YOU like." To that end, I'd suggest starting with all the EQ settings in mid-position and GAIN turned down low. Slowly turn up the GAIN until it sounds how you think an original Champ should sound. Then adjust the EQ by small amounts until the guitar tone best suits the room acoustics and other instruments playing with you.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang I idea.
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:01 am
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When I've compared the genuine amp to the "models, I seldom measure the same gain or EQ curve. What goes into the processors looks like a nice solid waveform. What comes out 1.5msec later is the processed signal and is nothing to be proud of.
I've watched on the scope as the digital circuits change their mind mid-note and adjust their EQ response.
I have no direct experience with Mustang. Other Fender and Vox digital amps I've been in have the same digital processors and control scheme. I expect the Mustang uses the same 32 bit processor
There is no audio on any of the controls except the Master. The other controls are DC voltage dividers fed to the processor.

In my original post, I resisted the suggestion to sell your Mustang and just buy an old Champ. But then you would be able to hear the actual differences and that would take the shine off your Mustang.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang I idea.
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:09 am
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TimsAudio wrote:
I have no direct experience with Mustang.

Then you are probably not the ideal person to answer questions about them.

Quote:
Other Fender and Vox digital amps I've been in have the same digital processors and control scheme. I expect the Mustang uses the same 32 bit processor

So? All PCs basically use the same processor. That doesn't mean they all do the same at any given moment.

Quote:
There is no audio on any of the controls except the Master. The other controls are DC voltage dividers fed to the processor.

Again: So?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang I idea.
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:30 am
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No, I'm not the ideal technician, husband or clown. I'm the first person to admit I don't know it all, but...
I am familiar with performance curves of champs and Princetons.
And I'm familiar with Fender's modeling circuits and performance.
Perhaps you are the ideal person who could wax more eloquenty about this subject?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang I idea.
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:37 am
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TimsAudio wrote:
In my original post, I resisted the suggestion to sell your Mustang and just buy an old Champ. But then you would be able to hear the actual differences and that would take the shine off your Mustang.

It would also leave you stuck with a tiny amp with three knobs, no effects, and no flexibility. That would put the shine back on the Mustang for me. :mrgreen:

To OP, sorry, but as scott-uk stated, we need someone who has both amps side-by-side to build it.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang I idea.
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:03 pm
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Thanx for the feedback thus far.
I was looking for a decent starting point as I do not own either a champ or princeton.
And also why I was searching for recordings of either one.
I did find that Eric Clapton used a champ in the studio for Layla and other assorted love songs, so at least that gives me somewhat of an idea of that particular sound.
But I really have not heard what one of the original 65 Princeton Reverb's sound like.
I'll keep digging around though.
Any and all further comments or suggestions would be very welcomed.
Jeff


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Post subject: Re: Mustang I idea.
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:28 am
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Quote:
I really have not heard what one of the original 65 Princeton Reverb's sound like

Playing devil's advocate: if you don't know what the original sounds like, how do you know that's the sound you want? Maybe a better idea is just to tweak the Mustang settings until you get a sound that you like, for what you want to do now, and don't worry about whether it sounds identical to some other amp from the past.

Also of course, 1960s amps were hand-built from discrete components, and no two were identical. There probably is no such thing as a standard 65 Princeton sound. It's a distinctive type of sound certainly, and you'll be able to capture that with any reasonable settings on the Mustang's Princeton amp model. But again, another reason not to stress too much about trying to attain some hypothetical perfect sound.

Finally, listening to recordings of other musicians using a particular amp is of limited help. A lot of the sound will depend on the exact guitar they were using, the recording process and other effects (intentional or accidental) applied during recording, and most importantly the skill of the guitarists fingers. So again, just go with what sounds good to you, with your guitars, equipment, and fingers.

Just an opinion.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang I idea.
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:36 pm
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I did find that Eric Clapton used a champ in the studio for Layla and other assorted love songs, so at least that gives me somewhat of an idea of that particular sound.

if you research this a bit more, you'll find the technique he used was not what you'd expect.

The amps were run face down, with the mic capturing the sound that came out of the back of the amp.

the rule of thumb for you to use is:

if it feels good, and it sounds good, it is good.


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