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Post subject: What are the filter echo FX derived from in real life?
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:48 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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I'm enjoying the filter echos for a bit of a spacey dub type sound.
But I'm curious what these are copied from? - guessing a rack FX unit..

Other than dub reggae I can't recognise the sound being used much.
Any well known tunes that use the effect?

Thanks!


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Post subject: Re: What are the filter echo FX derived from in real life?
Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:47 am
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Professional Musician
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I don't know what other real device (if any) the Mustang echo filters are based on. I've only encountered the concept of an echo filter in software audio/signal processing and modelling, whether for scientific research or music. Quite possibly they only exist in DSP-based equipment, and the Mustang effect is just based on other software rather than a particular, real, guitar effect unit.

My understanding is that the difference between a "delay" and an "echo filter" is that the former simply repeats the original sound exactly (or as close to exact as the equipment allows), whereas the latter deliberately modifies the sound before repeating it.

I think the idea is that the latter (an echo filter) more realistically mimics a real-world echo - where the acoustics of the surface reflecting the sound to create the echo, don't reflect all frequencies the same, or at the same time, or in the same direction, etc.

I suppose an (old-fashioned) tape-loop delay unit could be turned into an echo filter by the addition of other effects (EQ, modulation, etc) in the feedback circuit. It sounds like the sort of thing that was probably experimented with in 1960s recording studios, but I've never seen a stand-alone piece of consumer equipment that does it that way.


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Post subject: Re: What are the filter echo FX derived from in real life?
Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:13 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Thanks for your comments Scott - makes sense.
I remember playing with a WEM Copycat but this isn't as warm as those - still, adds a nice change.
Works surprisingly well with a bit of high gain - got a nice thing with Ranger, Supersonic and Echo filter!


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Post subject: Re: What are the filter echo FX derived from in real life?
Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:06 pm
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Roadie
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As near as I can make out, Echo Filter is like a delay unit with the output going through a parametric equalizer.
Delay Time: same as a regular delay, in milliseconds.
Feedback: how much of the repeated signal gets fed back into the input of the delay. (="regeneration"?)
Frequency: the centre frequency of the band that is repeated. It should have been calibrated in Hz, not "%" (unless it's supposed to mean that it only works, say, 23% of the time :lol: ).
Resonance: how narrow or wide the bandwidth of the repeated signal. 100% is a very narrow band, almost a notch bandpass filter. It should have been marked in octaves, or Q value, or some such; not "%".

The frequency and resonance parameters are why it's more like a parametric equalizer, and not a graphic equalizer.

I'm not sure what "input level" is there for, unless it means something more like "Gain". If so, then the locations of the "Level"and "Input Level" knobs should be swapped.
It would help if I had a clue as to what real-world device it emulates. :? Which I don't.

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Post subject: Re: What are the filter echo FX derived from in real life?
Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:15 pm
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[pointless self-quote deleted]
I was hoping to exploit Echo Filter to get a really "drippy" palm-muted Surf sound. Still working on it. :(

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Last edited by John L Rose on Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: What are the filter echo FX derived from in real life?
Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:37 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Hey John - I think Scott has it right in that it's like a tape echo effect but the repeats go through a filter, so get a changed frequency response on each repeat.
A real tape echo would only have a small tone change on each repeat.
I think the frequency setting is for the speed of a "sweep oscillator" that sweeps from low to high, giving control over the repeat tones. (I could be wrong there).

It does sound a bit digitally processed in large amounts.
But should be good for some Hawaiian surfy sounds!


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Post subject: Re: What are the filter echo FX derived from in real life?
Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:50 pm
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markcc wrote:
I think the frequency setting is for the speed of a "sweep oscillator" that sweeps from low to high, giving control over the repeat tones. (I could be wrong there).

This is why Fender should provide a "Fully Detailed User Manual For Those Who Give a Crap", as opposed to the "TLDR User Manual" we do get. :x

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Post subject: Re: What are the filter echo FX derived from in real life?
Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:17 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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I completely agree! Very underwhelmed and frustrated by what is provided by Fender! Thanks for the information you've compiled John! Much appreciated!

John L Rose wrote:
markcc wrote:
I think the frequency setting is for the speed of a "sweep oscillator" that sweeps from low to high, giving control over the repeat tones. (I could be wrong there).

This is why Fender should provide a "Fully Detailed User Manual For Those Who Give a Crap", as opposed to the "TLDR User Manual" we do get. :x

markcc wrote:
Hey John - I think Scott has it right in that it's like a tape echo effect but the repeats go through a filter, so get a changed frequency response on each repeat.
A real tape echo would only have a small tone change on each repeat.
I think the frequency setting is for the speed of a "sweep oscillator" that sweeps from low to high, giving control over the repeat tones. (I could be wrong there).

It does sound a bit digitally processed in large amounts.
But should be good for some Hawaiian surfy sounds!

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