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Post subject: Mustang v.2 III headphone jack vs. XLR out
Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:25 pm
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I already know there is a big difference in the sound between the speaker itself and the headphone jack. The headphones sound alot tighter and more defined, especially with the high gain sounds.

My question is are the XLR L/R jacks identical to the sound of the headphone jack? I am going to be plugging into a huge sound system in a couple days (and Ive only owned the thing for 5 days now lol), and I want to have an idea of what to expect. I am still not sure whether the sound guy wants to mic the speaker or use the XLR outs.

I kind of dig the more processed sound of the headphone jacks and hope the XLR are like that...


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Post subject: Re: Mustang v.2 III headphone jack vs. XLR out
Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:24 am
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This has been discussed before on the forum.

I don't personally know the answer (as I have a V1 Mustang without XLR outputs) but opinion seems to be that the XLR output is similar to, but not identical to, the headphone output. In theory, looking at the amp's circuitry, the two should be identical. I suspect differences are due to the sound (EQ, phase, etc) being impacted by impedance and level mis-matching etc with whatever equipment these outputs are being connected to.

Also, for completeness, I don't think the headphone output and speaker output are deliberately different. They're both driven from the same signal. It's just that any power amp and speaker are going to introduce their own colouration to the sound. Again as amply discussed elsewhere on the forum, the Mustangs deliberately have a guitar-amp speaker (rather than an FRFR PA or hi-fi speaker setup) which will superimpose its own tone on the sound.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang v.2 III headphone jack vs. XLR out
Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:01 pm
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Scott-UK +1

OK I don't think that Fender setout to make the XLR and Headphones out actually sound different. However the differences that you are experiencing are because of the EQ differences of the medium in use.

As a side point, although the use of the XLR's add convenience in a live setting, the fact that its emulating the sound of a mic'd cab to me sounds a little plastic. So although some on here like and tolerate the emulated out I personnally prefer to mic. But that's just my opinion.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang v.2 III headphone jack vs. XLR out
Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:12 pm
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as I already posted:
-yes, xlr and phones sound different
-if you want XLR to sound like phones out, simply connect phones and the XLR out will be modified to sound like the phones out


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Post subject: Re: Mustang v.2 III headphone jack vs. XLR out
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:47 am
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Quote:
if you want XLR to sound like phones out, simply connect phones and the XLR out will be modified to sound like the phones out

I'm intrigued by this. In what way is the XLR output modified? According to the amp's signal chain diagram, the XLR outputs always get the "headphone-style" CAB emulation(*), regardless of whether headphones are actually plugged in, and nothing else in the XLR signal path is affected (according to Fender's documentation) by the presence of headphones.

So what changes for the XLR output when plugging in headphones? Your post makes me wonder if the signal chain diagram (http://support.fender.com/manuals/guita ... tsLoop.pdf) is incorrect in the way it shows the "headphone" cab emulation/EQ always being applied to the XLR outputs - does the style of cab emulation actually depend on whether headphones are plugged in?

* (ie the signal is EQ'ed for FRFR rather than for a guitar speaker, in theory so that all signal paths are supposed to end up sounding the same)


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Post subject: Re: Mustang v.2 III headphone jack vs. XLR out
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:16 am
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I can not explain why this happens other than by extrapolation of what happens with the Floor. In the floor, as soon as you connect headphones, the output voicing of all outputs gets modified to "PA system" with flat bass and treble controls (essentially disabling voicing)
I'm guessing it has a similar effect on V2 amps.

In other words, is not the way things are connected in the audio chain, is more like when inserting phones, DSP output processing changes. I do not think this was made on purpose this way for the V2 amps, but is there.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang v.2 III headphone jack vs. XLR out
Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:56 pm
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The left and right channels of a typical headphone jack are signal voltages that are "with respect to ground", and the common conductor is typically the braided wire shield or ground of the cord. Multiple channels share the same ground wire.

On properly-used XLR connectors, say a single channel 3 conductor mono plug, there are two conductors for the signal and a dedicated shield. The signal voltages are with respect to each other, 180 degrees out of phase, and they both "float" with respect to the shield/ground.

The benefit of floating pairs is that, on longer cable runs, any ambient RF or electromagnetic interference is going to affect both wires identically. Since the input at the destination is only looking at the voltage difference between the two wires, then the interference noise is cancelled out. I think it also reduces ground loop noise, with the shield wire only connected at one end of the cable.
Cat-5 Ethernet cables also use that same principle of twisted pairs for noise cancellation.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang v.2 III headphone jack vs. XLR out
Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:53 pm
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I plugged my amp into this system last week. Its got to be a $100,000 PA system using Avion personal monitors. It did not go too well. The sound coming through the Avion was very harsh. Listening through the actual system was not as bad, but it certainly was not as nice as I thought the patches were. I designed them listening to Beats Audio ear buds, which are pretty decent as far as common headphones go.

I am going to try to design some new patches using the sound I get through the Avion monitors. I figure that is as close to as what is actually coming out of the XLRs. If I can get that sounding close to my liking, then I figure the sound coming out of the mains has got to be decent.

I was also going to try to use patches made to be played through the speaker on the amp, but then I have to mic in and going through some kind of direct output is easier on the sound guy. Also I didn't even make patches to my liking yet by just listening to the speaker.

This is only my third week using the amp as it is.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang v.2 III headphone jack vs. XLR out
Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:03 pm
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Hi,

most headphones nowadays are essentially DJ phones.
That means a lot of bass, a lot of treble and no mids. totally the opposite of what you get thru a guitar amp :)
I would recommend getting some inexpensive flat response studio earphones, that would get you in the ballpark of the Avion's for around 50$. The ones I use for an almost equivalent situation are the AKG K240 Studio, unbeatable confort and audio quality for the price.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang v.2 III headphone jack vs. XLR out
Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:10 pm
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After another day of working, the sounds are actually not as bad as I thought in the first place. I tweaked em some more and we actually sounded good. Should be a pretty good service (playing a contemporary church service) so long as my actual playing holds up.

I would still like to get an EQ pedal, probably a GE-7, and throw that in the loop. I wish they had thrown in a EQ effect available to add to patches, similar to what they have available in amplitube. You can only do so much with the EQ controls on the amp itself in each patch.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang v.2 III headphone jack vs. XLR out
Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:52 am
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mtsalmela80 wrote:
I plugged my amp into this system last week. Its got to be a $100,000 PA system using Avion personal monitors. It did not go too well. The sound coming through the Avion was very harsh. Listening through the actual system was not as bad, but it certainly was not as nice as I thought the patches were. I designed them listening to Beats Audio ear buds, which are pretty decent as far as common headphones go.

I am going to try to design some new patches using the sound I get through the Avion monitors. I figure that is as close to as what is actually coming out of the XLRs. If I can get that sounding close to my liking, then I figure the sound coming out of the mains has got to be decent.

I was also going to try to use patches made to be played through the speaker on the amp, but then I have to mic in and going through some kind of direct output is easier on the sound guy. Also I didn't even make patches to my liking yet by just listening to the speaker.

This is only my third week using the amp as it is.


I'm not sure I understand why going direct would be any easier on the sound guy than micing the amp. But one thing you'll have to realize is that the monitor speakers are full range speakers so your presets are going to sound quite different than your amp's speakers or most headsets. There are some very high end flat response headsets out there if you want to use them to tweak your sound, or you could invest in a powered monitor/speaker and use that powered by your XLR out to get the sound you want. This is one of the main reasons I always mic the guitar amps as that will give you a much more accurate representation of the sound you're producing out of the amp.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang v.2 III headphone jack vs. XLR out
Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:57 am
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dunedindragon wrote:
mtsalmela80 wrote:
I plugged my amp into this system last week. Its got to be a $100,000 PA system using Avion personal monitors. It did not go too well. The sound coming through the Avion was very harsh. Listening through the actual system was not as bad, but it certainly was not as nice as I thought the patches were. I designed them listening to Beats Audio ear buds, which are pretty decent as far as common headphones go.

I am going to try to design some new patches using the sound I get through the Avion monitors. I figure that is as close to as what is actually coming out of the XLRs. If I can get that sounding close to my liking, then I figure the sound coming out of the mains has got to be decent.

I was also going to try to use patches made to be played through the speaker on the amp, but then I have to mic in and going through some kind of direct output is easier on the sound guy. Also I didn't even make patches to my liking yet by just listening to the speaker.

This is only my third week using the amp as it is.


I'm not sure I understand why going direct would be any easier on the sound guy than micing the amp. But one thing you'll have to realize is that the monitor speakers are full range speakers so your presets are going to sound quite different than your amp's speakers or most headsets. There are some very high end flat response headsets out there if you want to use them to tweak your sound, or you could invest in a powered monitor/speaker and use that powered by your XLR out to get the sound you want. This is one of the main reasons I always mic the guitar amps as that will give you a much more accurate representation of the sound you're producing out of the amp.


I totally agree that micing the cab is the best way to go, but the guys over there are going for ZERO stage presence (i.e. sound coming directly from amps on stage). It actually works because the groups always sound excellent when playing, a couple guys have small amps miced in back rooms with long patch cables laid out to where they stand. I might have to look into a flat response set of headphones. As I said, the sound is pretty decent at this point, although I'm sure with more experience with the amp I could make them a lot better.

Heck, they wanted to mic my amp from the get go, but I had worked the patches listening through my headphones, so obviously they didn't sound quite right out of the speaker. I thought that going direct to the PA would give me basically the same thing I was hearing out of the headphones.
The problem really is I was simply not aware that most headphones (ESP beats audio, etc) color the sound so much. I could either try to design patches while listening to their monitors at the church, or purchase said headphones or small monitor speaker setup.

Thanks!


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Post subject: Re: Mustang v.2 III headphone jack vs. XLR out
Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:32 am
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Most people I know doing a "silent stage" setup mic their amps offstage and have their own monitor mix through in ear monitors. That makes it pretty simple to set your tone rather than jumping through a bunch of hoops.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang v.2 III headphone jack vs. XLR out
Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:28 am
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dunedindragon wrote:
Most people I know doing a "silent stage" setup mic their amps offstage and have their own monitor mix through in ear monitors. That makes it pretty simple to set your tone rather than jumping through a bunch of hoops.


Totally agree with this one.

Direct outs always seem to me to be over-sold for the live environment. OK the speaker and mic emulations are getting better but to me they still sound too airy and plastic. Over many years I have tried both live - sometimes I had no choice but to use the direct outs - but I always go back to micing up.


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