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Post subject: 4 Cable Method : Fender Mustang Floor + Fender Mustang III
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:53 am
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I own a Fender Mustang III (MIII) and a Fender Mustang Floor (MF). Yesterday evening I was trying to use the so-called 4 Cable Method (4CM) to connect this equipment with my guitar. When browsing on the internet, I found that the benefits of physically wiring the MF into the MIII (or any other amp) using the 4 cable method should be:

1.You can use the sounds of just the MIII
2.You can combine the modelling of the MF with preamp and poweramp of the MIII
3.You can use the MF modelling and effects (FX) and completely ignore the MIII's pre-amp

So I created the following chain (=> means cable):

Guitar => MF Input > MF Send => MIII Input > MIII Send => MF Return > MF Left Out => MIII Return

But it didnot work 100% properly (especially 1 and 2 above), although I only could spend 10 minutes on this. I don't know what went wrong, but today - with no guitars and amps in my neighbourhood - I was thinking if I need to adapt another few things to make all the options work:

1. To hear just the sounds of the MIII, the MF settings should be (per preset):

FX = all disabled
AMP = disabled (is it possible to disable this?)
INSERT = enabled

2. To use the MF's FX with the MIII's pre-amp and power amp (per preset):

FX = enabled
AMP = disabled (is it possible to disable this?)
INSERT = enabled

3. To use the MF's full modelling feature set and MIII's Power Amp only (per preset):

FX = enabled
AMP = enabled
INSERT = disabled

Basically I have now 3 questions:

I. Is the above Way of Working the correct one if I want to use the 3 mentioned possibilities?
II. Is it really possible to disable the 'AMP'+CAB simulation on the MF?
III. In the 'UTIL' menu: should the 'Left / Right Output Voicing' be set to 'Combo' or something else? Because the MF output is connected to the MIII return i.s.o. the MIII input ....?


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Post subject: Re: 4 Cable Method : Fender Mustang Floor + Fender Mustang I
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:18 am
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Given the connection setup you mention, the settings you proposse should accomplish what you want.

You CAN disable amp and cab emulation of the Floor (just push the "AMP" once and it wil be off, this is a different behaviour from the Mustang 3/4/5 combos)


Remember to adjust the Floor level to 12 oclock (this is unity gain)

I hjave a similar setup (Floor plus M3) but I use a different setup. The reason is that the way you are cabling things, if both M3 and Floor are enabled, you can just use the Floor effects on the POST AMP position of the M3 (fx loop on the Floor is fixed ans is the first thing on the chain of the Floor). I normally have more use/need for PRE AMP effects, so what I do instead is a simpler connection which puts the Floor on the PRE AMP position of the M3:

Guitar --- Floor instrument input --- (Floor PRE EFFECTS) --- unbal output --- M3 instrument input --- M3 PRE effects --- M3 AMP emulation --- M3 POST effects --- speaker


I would experiment with different voicings on the Floor, but as a staring point, if using your propossed setup, I would start with "Combo" and 50% treble and bass. If using my setup I find best "PA", with treble and bass set at 50% (flat voicing foor PRE effects, as the M3 is the one providing signal to the speaker)


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Post subject: Re: 4 Cable Method : Fender Mustang Floor + Fender Mustang I
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:04 am
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Quote:
it did not work 100% properly

Can you elaborate on what, exactly, didn't work properly? That is, what result were you expecting, and what (different) result did you get? That will make it easier to provide advice on what you may need to change.

It may also help if you explain what effects you want to use, in what order in your signal chain - independently of whether you're getting those effects from the Mustang Floor, Mustang amp, or your physical wiring. As 'jedi2b' notes, the 4-cable-method doesn't work with the Mustang Floor they way you might expect. So, tell us what you want to achieve and we can suggest the best connectivity and setup to get it.

To help your understanding, here's where all the effects appear in the signal chain, with the connectivity you give above:

Guitar => MF Input > MF Send => MIII Input > [MIII pre-effects] > [MIII amp model] > ### > [MIII post-effects] > *** > MIII Send => MF Return > [MF pre-effects] > [MF amp model] > [MF post-effects] > MF Left Out => MIII Return > *** > [MIII power amp]

*** If you have a V1 Mustang amp, the cab emulation appears where the first set of asterisks are. If you have a V2 Mustang amp, you can configure the cab emulation to be either at the first or second set of asterisks (or rather, you can configure the fx-loop to be before or after the cab emulation!)

### For completeness, if you use the EXP-1 in volume mode, this is where in the signal chain the pedal's volume control conceptually appears.


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Post subject: Re: 4 Cable Method : Fender Mustang Floor + Fender Mustang I
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:36 pm
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Thanks for your replies so far. In fact what I would like to achieve is probably not 100% possible. I will try to explain but I am not sure if I will succeed:

The ultimate goal would be an amp which I could use the 'good old fashioned way' meaning dialing the knobs from the amp itself : the bass, gain etc. when I want more bass gain volume whatever . ...

in combination with

quick switching between predefined presets (you could see it as using the mustang floor as an extensive 4 button foot switch)


In order to get close to this goal I thought that some kind of 4 Cable method is the most flexible way to achieve something like this. I thought a little about pre and post effects but not very extensively yet. I am just experimenting a little with all the possibilities and combinations.

As a minimum baseline I would like to achieve that the output of the MF could be transferred to the MIII combo.
On top of that it would be nice to have the possibilities as describes above or in my first post.

To mention briefly what the problems in the first 10 minutes of experimenting where:

At least I would expect that for a certain preset (e.g. Beauty Clean) on the amp in situation 1 should be exactly the same as the same setting in situation 3, both for volume as for EQ settings. This was clearly not the case. Either situation 1 or 3 (I don't remember exactly which one) had significantly more bass for example than the other. There might be other differences as well. I don't know the root cause for this.

I am not sure this explanation is more clear now....If not I will give it another try in the weekend when I have more time and come back on the exact 'problems' I am facing.

Problems is a big word anyway.... the Mustangs are wonderful amps in my opinion.


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Post subject: Re: 4 Cable Method : Fender Mustang Floor + Fender Mustang I
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:52 pm
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What about a Mustang 3 plus a 4 Button switch. I think it does what you want (physical knobs plus fast effect toggle thru foot switches) you can also add the 2 button switch for preset change for exemple.


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Post subject: Re: 4 Cable Method : Fender Mustang Floor + Fender Mustang I
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:47 am
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I agree with jedi2b - just the amp with its four- and two-button footswitches (and the EXP-1 pedal, if you want), may better suit what you want to do.

I think trying to use the M-Floor and the Mustang amp is just complicating things, and is unnecessary for what you want to do. It's potentially a great set-up, but will need a lot more experimentation and tweaking to get the sounds right for you.

As for why the following happens:
Quote:
for a certain preset (e.g. Beauty Clean) on the amp in situation 1 should be exactly the same as the same setting in situation 3, both for volume as for EQ settings. This was clearly not the case. Either situation 1 or 3 (I don't remember exactly which one) had significantly more bass for example than the other. There might be other differences as well.

First, I think "exactly the same" is unrealistic - it's two different devices, connecting through to the power amp, in different ways. I think "almost the same" should be the expectation.

But to address the issue (of the two not even being almost the same), have you checked the output voicing and output level of the Mustang Floor? You can tweak the M-Floor's output depending what device it is sending its output to - this setting is separate to any of the preset settings. This will affect the frequency response and may be a reason for one of the signal paths being bass-heavy compared to the other.

Further, although the output level knob (on the back of the M-Floor) is just a linear volume knob, different frequencies don't scale equally in volume. So setting that higher or lower (and then adjusting other volumes to suit, to keep overall volume the same) may also help.


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Post subject: Re: 4 Cable Method : Fender Mustang Floor + Fender Mustang I
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:50 am
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Hi all,

As said before I only tried for a minute or 10 and yes I also adjusted the levels a little, but I did not investigate it for a long time.

4 button switch I also have but the possibilities are kind of limited.

The Mustang Floor I can play with headphones on and tweak settings etc. and then I would expect that I could plug it in a combo (in this case a MIII but it could have been any other branch) in order to get a sound which might be 'exactly' or let's say at least comparable with the flooroutput itself and even more when this combo is a Fender MustangIII.

I thought that the 4CM could be used for this, but still would have some possibilities to use the combo as an 'old way' amp.

Above that, I want to explore if you combine some effects of the floor with the combo etc... see it as a playground at home. No more, no less

To get the sound comparable I will play a little more with the levels and output voicings


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Post subject: Re: 4 Cable Method : Fender Mustang Floor + Fender Mustang I
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:59 pm
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Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:37 am
Posts: 1315
Location: England
Quote:
The Mustang Floor I can play with headphones on and tweak settings etc. and then I would expect that I could plug it in a combo (in this case a MIII but it could have been any other branch) in order to get a sound which might be 'exactly' or let's say at least comparable with the floor output itself

One thing to note: the sound through headphones will not be (and will never be) identical to the sound through a guitar amp speaker. The reasons why have been discussed before on this forum so I'll leave you to search, but the gist is that the frequency response and tonal delivery of headphones is very different to the speaker (a fact of speaker physics, nothing to do with the Mustangs in particular). Most people who use headphones have two sets of presets: one adjusted for headphones, then an equivalent set with different settings, to make them sound the same through the amp speaker as the first set do through headphones.


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