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Post subject: Request to fender...anyone else agree?
Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:14 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Just want to see if i'm the only one who wishes for this feature, but if not maybe fender will listen when they update the firmware. So lets see if many of you are with me on this.

First let me say that switching from one patch to another has a delay, so thats really not much of a fix for what i'm talking about. I love the dynamics of this amp and i use it the same way as a regular tube amp. That is, I use my guitar volume to roll off gain and go from clean to OD. Works great like a good tube amp, but like with a good tube amp to get very clean when rolled back, you can't use too much gain on the amp. Enough for most anything, but not enough to get that singing sustain. On a tube amp i use a pedal for that. Setting one of the footswitches (i have 2 and 4 button and both can do this function) on the mustang to switch on or off the stomp and mod is great and allows you to do this. The problem however is that many of the models need a stomp just to get thier regular amount of gain and on many it's even needed to tighten up lows. So you have a patch that sounds great and goes from clean to mean with the guitar volume. But you need a pedal to get you the hot solo tone i was talking about and the stomp is already being used to create the basic amp tone.

So to fender i would like to request that they either add one stomp to the mod menu or somehow enable 2 stomps to be used. One could even be nothing more than a clean boost. In fact, thats what I'd prefer. But anything would be fine. Heck, even if the mod effects had a level control with enough output to drive the input harder and the ability to fully turn off the modulation that would be great.

The supersonic and 70's marshall are the only 2 i have found that allow me to get enough gain and tightness in the low end to make for a good basic sound, then use the on/off stomp function for a lead boost. There are others with enough too, but they don't clean up well. The orange for example has a ton of gain and the lows can be tight. But roll back the guitar and the clean tone is somewhat muddy and lifeless. Probably my #1 fav basic rock patch is one i made with the tweed bassman model being driven a tad more with the greenbox. It cleans up beautifully and chimes really well and has all the gain on 10 i need for anything aside from that liquid lead tone. But i'd have to use an outboard pedal for that since the stomp is already being used. This amp would IMO at least be soooo much better with the ability to use the stomp function and have a second one to hit the input harder. It would for me at least make the amp a 100% total self contained rig with nothing else needed but the guitar and cord. I would be willing to sell my MIII that i've only had two months and buy another one just for that function alone. But if fender could release a firmware with that i'd be all over it. That would make my day. Hell, my year !


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Post subject: Re: Request to fender...anyone else agree?
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:30 am
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Professional Musician
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This has been discussed / requested on this forum many times before - the ability to have more combinations of simultaneous effects, in particular the ability to have more than one effect from each group.

I'll go one further and suggest the next generation of Mustangs (assuming there is one!) should be able to have up to (at least) six simultaneous effects, and that it should be possible to choose any combination of effects, not restricted to groupings.

As for your specific issue of volume control - you could probably solve that today with the EXP-1, use it to raise and lower the volume or gain of your preset without needing to use an extra effect. Just a suggestion.


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Post subject: Re: Request to fender...anyone else agree?
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:04 am
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Although I like the idea of being able to have more than one effect out of each group, in practical terms I can't think of any instances where I've needed it on any of the songs in my band's current lineup of material. There are some cases where the dynamics of the song require a significant change and I switch between different patches (I don't seem to have any problems with delay between the switching patches), but I don't think those situations would be fixed by additional effects in each group. All said, I wouldn't have a problem with a little extra flexibility in this area, and if it were there I might discover a use for it.

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Post subject: Re: Request to fender...anyone else agree?
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:51 am
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Aspiring Musician
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As far as delay between patches, yes, it's true theres no delay IN CERTAIN INSTANCES. You'll find if theres no stomp selected and the patch is the same model then you're good. But like i said, many models don't have enough gain w/o using a stomp. If the patches you use don't require a stomp then you're good. But going from one model to another or one patch with stomp to one without will give a delay. Delay also varies in how long it is depending on various things. Some are so long it would be unusable at a gig.

If theres a model that you find has enough gain for your normal sound even at a lower gain setting and sounds fine in all regards and you also want a gain boost at times, you're golden. Just set the patch with the gain you want then save a copy of it in the next slot and then tweak that one for added gain and you can switch between them with no delay. Unfortunately for me, there are only 2 models that i can get what i want from with less than full gain. The rest either don't have enough gain, or the low end is muddy without a stomp, or don't clean up well when rolled off. My fav is the bassman which only gets me what i want for my normal "non boosted" sound with the greenbox engaged to tighten the lows and give me a bit more gain. But set like that theres no way i can switch to a gain boosted lead aside from going to another patch and living with the delay.


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Post subject: Re: Request to fender...anyone else agree?
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:58 am
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I totally agree! How cool would it be to have clean boost and overdrive available on the 2 button switch (that's really all I need)!


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Post subject: Re: Request to fender...anyone else agree?
Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:54 am
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Aspiring Musician
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I agree more flexibility is always better. But wish lists are exactly that, so in the meantime you can try the following:

-create your patch for your clean(ish) tone
-use FUSE to put a simple compressor on the POST amp position (not the default you can configure from amp itself which is PRE amp position)
-use a footswitch to enable or disable the compressor

give it a try, do not assume it's irrelevant, you are going to be surprised. Using this technique, even the Princeton can be made to sound as a hard rock amp :)


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Post subject: Re: Request to fender...anyone else agree?
Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:08 pm
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scott-uk wrote:
As for your specific issue of volume control - you could probably solve that today with the EXP-1, use it to raise and lower the volume or gain of your preset without needing to use an extra effect. Just a suggestion.

I have actually messed with this extensively and just couldn't get it to work for me. Specifically, I was using the EXP-1 to control the GAIN on the stomp. It gave me the full range of distortion I was looking for, but I found the foot pedal to be a little too twitchy to locate the correct GAIN, and then take my foot off the pedal without further adjusting the GAIN. I tried changing the thresholds, etc. but just couldn't find something that worked for what I wanted to do. The 'simple compressor in post' idea (ala jedi2b) sounds promising, but I haven't had a chance to play with it yet.

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Post subject: Re: Request to fender...anyone else agree?
Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:21 pm
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jedi2b wrote:
I agree more flexibility is always better. But wish lists are exactly that, so in the meantime you can try the following:

-create your patch for your clean(ish) tone
-use FUSE to put a simple compressor on the POST amp position (not the default you can configure from amp itself which is PRE amp position)
-use a footswitch to enable or disable the compressor

give it a try, do not assume it's irrelevant, you are going to be surprised. Using this technique, even the Princeton can be made to sound as a hard rock amp :)


Been there done that, but again, you can only have that on one footswitch, it would be so cool if you could have an OD on the other...


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Post subject: Re: Request to fender...anyone else agree?
Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:41 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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sure it would be cool, but Fender stated in the past the Mustangs are limited in processing power, hence the limitation of one stomp effect per preset.

Soooo, in the meantime, while we wait for Mustang v3 or Surper-mustang, or whatever Fender marketing wants to sell us this time, you can create a preset with just the amp emulation, adjusted to be driven at full guitar volume. Rolling off volume/changing your attack would clean the sound. Then you can engage a post compressor for overdriven sounds (I like the amp emulation driven sound more than any overdrive pedal, anyway)

Remember, overdrive pedals were invented as a poor-man-amp-emulation of sorts back in the 70's (or even before?) to get driven sounds at low volumes. I do not see the value of an overdrive pedal when you can "overdrive" the amp emulation itself, and just turn down the master volume... but that is just me :)


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Post subject: Re: Request to fender...anyone else agree?
Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:06 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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jedi2b wrote:
I agree more flexibility is always better. But wish lists are exactly that, so in the meantime you can try the following:

-create your patch for your clean(ish) tone
-use FUSE to put a simple compressor on the POST amp position (not the default you can configure from amp itself which is PRE amp position)
-use a footswitch to enable or disable the compressor

give it a try, do not assume it's irrelevant, you are going to be surprised. Using this technique, even the Princeton can be made to sound as a hard rock amp :)


You apparently didn't read my post well or i wasn't clear enough.


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Post subject: Re: Request to fender...anyone else agree?
Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:33 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Allright, allright, you actually made me curious on how to achieve what I think you are looking for. Actually you gave me the idea: "Heck, even if the mod effects had a level control with enough output to drive the input harder and the ability to fully turn off the modulation that would be great."
So I created this preset that may put you on track to something useful:

Behold the double-boost-Super-sonic!
https://fuse.fender.com/mustang/presets ... st-ssonic/

Based on Intheblues Ssonic 60 preset.
Best used with a footswitch:
-enable the MODULATION effect for a clean(ish) boost
-enable the STOMP effect for an overdriven boost
combine both for extra volume!

feel free to replace the supersonic by any other amp emulation of your liking. just make sure to adjust amp-emulation gain to get some headroom before it overdrives (with MOD and STOMP disabled) and it should work fine.
Also replace the stomp overdrive by any other overdrive stomp of your liking, just put it back on the same chain position.
The MOD effect I used is 100% transparent as configured and actually gives a clean boost (in theory 1.5x input signal). You can tweak the TONE control of this effect to make it duller. You can also diminish the amount of the clean boost by lowering the MIX control.


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Post subject: Re: Request to fender...anyone else agree?
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:50 am
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That kinda works, although with the tone at 10 it's a little brighter...Have you tried putting the Mod post amp? I might try that later...


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Post subject: Re: Request to fender...anyone else agree?
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:11 am
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Quote:
Fender stated in the past the Mustangs are limited in processing power, hence the limitation of one stomp effect per preset

I can understand the processing power limiting the total number of simultaneous effects. But it shouldn't prevent two 'stomp' type effects from being used simultaneously (eg two stomps rather than a stomp and a mod). In fact, the DSP needed for a stomp effect is almost certainly less than for a (more complex) mod effect.

It seems Fender's grouping of effects has given the amps an unnecessary restriction. Rather than asking for "any combination of any number" of effects, here's a couple of more humble requests for updates to the amp that would fulfil most, I think, of the actual questions people have asked.

1. Create a stomp effect that is a combined compressor / overdrive. This is perfectly possible in current hardware, with a firmware update, and would answer the single most asked-for addition to the effects capability of the amps (wanting both a compressor and overdrive). OK, so this effect wouldn't be able to have the full gamut of controls for both compressor and overdrive, but could have a suitable set to cover the majority of cases.

2. Allow the stomp effect group to be used twice, instead of a mod/delay/reverb group (you choose which group to lose, based on what else you want in the preset). Again this could be done in firmware, perhaps a UTIL menu setting or FUSE. This could be made even better by having a combined delay/reverb effect (I have an ancient ZOOM unit with this, so I know it's possible with very limited DSP). So you could have two stomps, one mod, and one combined delay/reverb.

3. Allow the mod effect group to be used twice, same idea as (2) above. This may be more problematic as I suspect the effects in this group use the most DSP, so this may not be possible. (NB I don't see value in using the delay and reverb groups more than once?)

4. Improve the pitch-shift effect, again do-able in firmware, as per user requests (ease of setting interval; intelligent harmonising, etc)

5. Improve the multitap delay to allow more permutations, as per requests on this forum. Again this is just a firmware update.

If all that were done, and maybe one or two other similar things, there'd be no need to provide more simultaneous effects or improve the DSP hardware. Just my thoughts...


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Post subject: Re: Request to fender...anyone else agree?
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:17 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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joebeets wrote:
That kinda works, although with the tone at 10 it's a little brighter...Have you tried putting the Mod post amp? I might try that later...


You are welcomed.
If you put the mod post amp you will have obviously less gain as this will have no impact on amp emulation gain. In other words, it will just increase the volume a bit but will have no impact on tone.


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Post subject: Re: Request to fender...anyone else agree?
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:43 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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scott-uk wrote:
1. Create a stomp effect that is a combined compressor / overdrive.



mmm not sure about what you mean, the word "overdrive" is used in a variety of contexts :)

from a purist point of view, an overdrive, is just a transparent signal amplifier (or with simple tone control(s) included), just to drive harder the amp (or amp-emulation) and make it soft-clip the signal. Is what I'm trying to achieve with the MOD effect in my preset. You can also attain the exact same result changing the gain of the amp emulation (doable on Mustang Floor on the fly with the pedal, or EXP-1 on other Mustangs)

If we are referring to overdrive as distortion effects, in essence these effects are simply bad quality compressors :) That is they compress the signal by clipping it and adding different varieties of high order harmonics in the process. Signal gets scaled by the gain parameter and then chopped (and hence compressed) to the output level selected on the effect. Keep adding gain and you will increase the sustain of the effect (and increasing harmonics level in the process)

I'm genuinely interested to hear any use cases that require both a compressor and a distortion effect. Do you guys know any?

The elements included into the STOMP category are the most CPU intensive on the digital domain (dynamic effects). All the others (phasers, flangers, delays, wahs, and to a great extent reverbs) are simple applications of a comb filters, not at all CPU intensive, so I agree some reshuffling of effects could be done by Fender.

If I may add to the list :) I think the most important effect the Mustangs are missing is a parametric EQ (which Fender is already using anyway with their "cab emulation"). Having a configurable parametric EQ will provide Mustangs a quantum leap in terms on versatility.


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