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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:11 am
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No, thats not the case with a modeler. The output section in a modeler has the same job requirements as a PA does for your vocals. Stay clean and flat at all levels. Because what makes a loud amp good is already built into the models. So from the lowest volume thats usable to the highest it should all be good. In other words, you needn't worry about more watts. If anything it could make the low volume tone ever so slightly better. But as a bonus you get the option to play it at louder levels if you need to in the future. You can gig with the MIII or play it at bedroom levels. It does it all good.

As i said before, theres a point in the volume level with any amp where you are too low to get good tone because the speaker needs to push a bit before things happen. Thats going to happen at the same volume with a 20 watter as it does with a 100. At the volume point where they are both pushing the speaker just loud enough to start sounding good, they will both be putting out the same wattage ! See where i'm going here? After that the 100 is going to have the advantage in staying cleaner than the 20 watter as you go louder, which is what you want with a modeler.


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:32 am
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As I've mentioned before, I live in an apartment in an old 1840's building. Paper thin walls.

I also own a Mustang III, and only use it at home. The master volume rarely strays above 2.5. I, personally, love the sound! Would it possibly be more satisfying at gig volume? Of Course!! However, having a place to live is important, too.

I get the ymmv thing, but at these sound levels, my tone has plenty of body, and is not muddy, ice picky, etc. I guess it's all in what you're used to. I've never played in a band or at rehearsal volume, and I hate using headphones. I just got it to sound good at my levels.

The open back makes a world of difference, too. It's not just the speaker size that improves the sound- it's also the larger cab and the open back. It's far less directional and beamy than my closed back Vox Valvetronics. I often sit on my bed to play, and the MIII is pointed 90 degrees away from me. Still sounds great.

I honestly think sometimes people focus too much on the power rating. I hear the 100 watts is overkill comment so often. These amps DO quiet. Even the MV with the 4x12 can do bedroom level. It's not hurting the amp any to play at low power, and the greatly expanded controlability and extra features make it very worth it.

As for your headphones question, I think the solution is to make separate presets for headphone use vs standalone use. Others have had that same experience, and that's how they solved it. I, too have noticed that sounds set up via the amp by itself don't sound "right" through headphones, and vice versa.

FWIW, I'm basically a beginner. I have NO real experience with tube amps, just with modellers. For me, finding a great tone is mainly luck! I wish I knew exactly how to dial in and eq to get just the sound I want. Mainly just play it by ear.

Believe it or not, I actually got into modelling amps, not as an all-in-one gear solution, but because I had no idea what kind of amp I actually wanted. So I got something with many different sounds. Now, I'd have a hard time living with less flexibiity... I even use pedals with it, and basically treat it like a regular amp- albeit one with 100 channels.

Players that cut their teeth on tube amps, doing it the traditional way often have a hard time using dirt pedals with modellers. They have to completely rethink how to use them. If you "grew up" with solid state/digital amps, it's just the way they work.


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:56 am
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Think I'm going back to the guitar store tomorrow see what kind of a deal I can cut on upgrading yo a three!

Guess it might pay to try it the shop this time :roll:
See if I can get that sweet twin 65 soaked in reverb just distorting.
Thanks for the input guys.
Never owned a tube amp so had no real experience with them.
From what you've said sounds like three is gonna be the answer!


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:03 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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You are comparing a mid boosted 8" guitar speaker to a midscooped 1" driver...
I suggest you do a search in the forums to find how to deal with this.


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:16 pm
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It's interesting (I think) to contrast this topic with viewtopic.php?f=27&t=95848

What's so different that one person buys a Mustang, tries to get a Marshall-like tone, but can only get (apparently) horrid noises from the amp, versus another person who buys a Mustang, tries to get a Marshall-like tone, and (apparently) hits the jackpot first time.

What is so different about what these two people are doing? If we could figure that out, we could better help the first person.


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:37 pm
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scott-uk wrote:
It's interesting (I think) to contrast this topic with viewtopic.php?f=27&t=95848

What's so different that one person buys a Mustang, tries to get a Marshall-like tone, but can only get (apparently) horrid noises from the amp, versus another person who buys a Mustang, tries to get a Marshall-like tone, and (apparently) hits the jackpot first time.

What is so different about what these two people are doing? If we could figure that out, we could better help the first person.


It's not just what they are doing....it's more about the person's taste in tone that can vary wildly regardless of whether both are trying for a marshall tone. Theres a lot of different marshall tones. It's also about their playing. Some people turn the guitar volume to 10 and it never leaves that position while others search out tones that work great when you back off to anywhere down to 3 on the dial. Different styles of music, different experience levels. Heck, you have people here in their 60's who spent 25, 30 or more years onstage while the other guy that is in your example might be 17 and has played only in his bedroom. Apples and oranges. I've many times seen a forum member at many forums speak as tho they are intimately aware of tonal details to a degree they sound like they've toured the world with the biggest acts, then they post a video to demo some piece of gear and it reveals they're a beginner. I could go on all nite, but you get the gist.

By the way, I've always been a marshall guy but to be honest i'm digging the fender models a lot more on the MIII. The marshalls are usable, but they don't get what i expect from a marshall. Decent, but i far prefer the fenders, especially the bassman which is what i use 90% of the time.


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:36 am
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scott-uk wrote:
It's interesting (I think) to contrast this topic with viewtopic.php?f=27&t=95848

What's so different that one person buys a Mustang, tries to get a Marshall-like tone, but can only get (apparently) horrid noises from the amp, versus another person who buys a Mustang, tries to get a Marshall-like tone, and (apparently) hits the jackpot first time.

What is so different about what these two people are doing? If we could figure that out, we could better help the first person.


In some ways I think it really depends on how they approach the tone they're searching for. I've never had this problem but I don't try to find a tone that lives in my head. Typically I'm searching for a specific tone I hear on a recording, so I have a reference model. This also has the advantage of sometimes knowing what kind of amp was being used in that recording, so that helps tremendously as well. For me trying to find a sound that only exists in my head would be really hard as it's not a constant.

As for volume and speakers, I really don't mess too much with my master volume when I'm developing a preset. I keep that at a constant 3.25 which is where I play on stage. The only things I typically tweak are the channel volume, gain, and EQ. If I start with a relatively close amp model it generally doesn't take that long to line up the tone against my reference model from a recording. Then it's just a matter of moving around the room a bit as that tone will vary somewhat depending on how close you are to the amp and how much in line you are with the speaker cone. Since my amp is always mic'd and my mic is set a few inches off of the cone, I try to position myself relative to that in order to tweak the final sound. As I've said, with a reference tone and a good starting amp model this process takes maybe 30 minutes to an hour to get what I want.

I never use headsets so I can't speak to that variation. But I do know that headsets vary considerably in how they color the sound. I rarely use them in even in recording when I'm doing mixing and mastering because of the coloration I get from headsets. I prefer to use flat-response near field monitors.

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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:29 am
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The guy in the other thread has an M III and loads of guitar experience so will know what to turn to get the sound he likes.
The guys here are talking about M I and M II - those lack a 'middle' button which slows down getting the tone you want, plus smaller speaker/cab/power.

I know an M II and M III sound the same via USB - but miles apart via speaker.


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:47 am
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Just spent the last hour on my mustang I trying to get an acceptable tone.
Getting so frustrated with this thing. It seems to get worse the longer it's on, loses even more clarity.
I'm not searching for a phantom tone in my head. Most common tone I use is a johnny marr type; well documted set up, fender twin reverb, chorus, bit of delay maybe. Plenty of exact guides around to get this tone but on here, not a chance. Through the phones as I've said its perfect.
Went to the shop I bought it from this morning. His advice conflicted with others, reckons a 100watt mustang 3 is going to be, in his words, like getting a Ferrari to drive to the shops and back.
Which as I would have bought it from him seems pretty honest.
He did suggest a kinsman 70 watt.
I don't think my expectations are to high, I'm not totally unreasonable, just want a few decent tones close enough to the stuff I like to play so I can slap away to my hearts content, not too much to ask is it??


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:35 am
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Quote:
Most common tone I use is a johnny marr type; well documted set up, fender twin reverb, chorus, bit of delay maybe

That's one of the Mustang standard presets and personally I think it sounds very good, although not sure if it's available by default on the Mustang 1.

If you don't have it / can't find it, here are the default settings for it on my Mustang, if these help (you'll have to use FUSE to set all this up on a Mustang 1):
Princeton amp model. gain 4, vol 7, treb 6.4, mid 8.2, bass 3.6, sag match, bias 0, gate off
No stomp effect
Mod effect is sine chorus: level 10, rate 0.62, depth 1.8, delay 1,8, phase 5.5
Delay effect is stereo tape: level 5.4, time 606, feedback 1.9, wow 4.4, separation 10
Reverb effect is Fender 65 Spring: level 5.5, decay 5.9, dwell 3.5, diff 10, tone 5.5

Quote:
like getting a Ferrari to drive to the shops and back

And what would be wrong with that? :)

In one sense yes the Mustang 3 may be more than you need. On the other hand, the Mustang 1 clearly isn't giving you everything you need - and it sounds as though that must be principally due to its built-in speaker (if you like what you get through headphones). So logically moving up to a Mustang that has the right power amp and speaker for you, is the right thing to do - even if that model then has other things you don't strictly need.

Quote:
just want a few decent tones close enough to the stuff I like to play

Many people on this forum do exactly that with the Mustang 1 - and even the Mustang Mini. Of course a Mustang 1 isn't going to sound identical to a Marshall Full Stack (or whatever...) - but for most people, most of the time, the Mustang amps are close enough, and more to the point, good enough in their own right, for their purpose. I can equally see the Mustang 1 isn't going to be the right sound for everyone - I bought one of the 'big' Mustangs for that very reason. It's far more than I need, it just has nuances to its sound that work better for me. I'd suggest the same for you.

Quote:
a kinsman 70 watt

I know nothing about this amp. If you respect this person's opinion, try both the Kinsman and Mustang 3 in his store yourself, and some others. Buy the one that sounds right to you, when you play it.

Quote:
The guy in the other thread has an M III and loads of guitar experience ... The guys here are talking about M I and M II

I was referring to the OP in this thread, who like "the guy in the other thread" also has a Mustang 3 and loads of experience. I just found it a shame we couldn't help him get the sound he wants. The Mustang 1 and 2 questions are later additions to this thread.

Quote:
M I and M II - those lack a 'middle' button

They both have an on-amp MID control: press and hold EXIT while turning the TREBLE knob. This is documented in the amp manual.

Quote:
tone will vary somewhat depending on how close you are to the amp and how much in line you are with the speaker cone

I'd forgotten about that but yes, that can make a massive difference. Not just whether you're to one side or in front of the amp, but also whether you're above or below the amp - which is also affected by tilting the amp, etc. People should definitely experiment with this.

Quote:
also about their playing. Some people turn the guitar volume to 10...

Yes, how people play, and how they are used to changes in their playing affecting the amp sound, plus how they adjust (or not) the guitar controls to vary the sound, will all be factors.


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:56 am
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2Ivanhoe wrote:
Just spent the last hour on my mustang I trying to get an acceptable tone.
Getting so frustrated with this thing. It seems to get worse the longer it's on, loses even more clarity.
I'm not searching for a phantom tone in my head. Most common tone I use is a johnny marr type; well documted set up, fender twin reverb, chorus, bit of delay maybe. Plenty of exact guides around to get this tone but on here, not a chance. Through the phones as I've said its perfect.
Went to the shop I bought it from this morning. His advice conflicted with others, reckons a 100watt mustang 3 is going to be, in his words, like getting a Ferrari to drive to the shops and back.
Which as I would have bought it from him seems pretty honest.
He did suggest a kinsman 70 watt.
I don't think my expectations are to high, I'm not totally unreasonable, just want a few decent tones close enough to the stuff I like to play so I can slap away to my hearts content, not too much to ask is it??



2ivanhoe:

I have the MIII. I am a relative beginner. I play at low levels. It sounds good at low levels. It will shake the windows at 4 :D I had an old yamaha solid state "practice combo amp" and it sounded like crap at any level. I went through a pretty long "search & selection" selection processes before I settled on the MIII to replace the old yamaha. I am not exactly sure why you can't find what your looking for with MI as it's is a nice amp. Maybe you need that Ferrari to be happy? This is all personal. But ya to answer your question the M3 may do the trick for you.

(I would use the analogy of pickup trucks rather than sports cars with the Mustang amps. MI is the compact model, MII full sized 2 wheel drive while the MIII is the start of the full sized 4x 4. MIV & MV being the heavier duty models. If you live in an area with a lot of snow, you need the 4x4 to get to the store even if the full size is over kill. Lol. Maybe makes sense if you have ever driven a 2 wheel drive pick up in the snow.)

Your sales guy is probably correct for most of the people. Get the amp that makes you happy. If it's the 3 or 5 or another brand, If you can swinging $$ wise go for it. You will be happier in the long run.


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:29 am
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If you don't have it / can't find it, here are the default settings for it on my Mustang, if these help (you'll have to use FUSE to set all this up on a Mustang 1):
Princeton amp model. gain 4, vol 7, treb 6.4, mid 8.2, bass 3.6, sag match, bias 0, gate off
No stomp effect
Mod effect is sine chorus: level 10, rate 0.62, depth 1.8, delay 1,8, phase 5.5
Delay effect is stereo tape: level 5.4, time 606, feedback 1.9, wow 4.4, separation 10
Reverb effect is Fender 65 Spring: level 5.5, decay 5.9, dwell 3.5, diff 10, tone 5.5


Thanks Scott uk, I'll give that a go. I'd been using primarily the twin reverb model up to now but happy to try that. Much appreciated.
Just don't as yet seem to be getting that slight break up? Distortion? Call it what you will, that I do through the headphones. Can get it if I go for overkill on a kinks or even sex pistols sound, but again not as good as headphones, I know I'm repeating myself.

Maybe you need that Ferrari to be happy?

Is that the sound of nail been struck firmly on the head?

That's one of the Mustang standard presets and personally I think it sounds very good, although not sure if it's available by default on the Mustang 1.

Reason enough to get the Ferrari out and drive the half mile to the shop me thinks!
No it's not on the mustang I.

I'd forgotten about that but yes, that can make a massive difference. Not just whether you're to one side or in front of the amp, but also whether you're above or below the amp - which is also affected by tilting the amp, etc. People should definitely experiment with this.

Genuinely had no idea this affected the sound. :cry:

Must be clear by now that I have much to learn.
Oh well I'm only 48 I'll crack it before the decades out.


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:33 am
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Missed who was the Op..so ok yeah and I completely forgot about "push exit for middle" - see I hated the push 'exit' thing so much that I upgraded to an MIII (if you are sitting and have one hand on the guitar it's a massive pain to do the double button pushes).
I use computers 10 hours a day and do techy work, and the birth cert. says I'm nearly 60, but you want instant access with a guitar amp.
Also it took me a good few months to really dial in tones that do it for me - the HiWatt is the mutt's nuts.

Personally I think the salesman is being a little patronising with his Ferrari comment - but Mustang or Ferrari they're both a prancing horse... :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:46 am
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If you don't have it / can't find it, here are the default settings for it on my Mustang, if these help (you'll have to use FUSE to set all this up on a Mustang 1):
Princeton amp model. gain 4, vol 7, treb 6.4, mid 8.2, bass 3.6, sag match, bias 0, gate off
No stomp effect
Mod effect is sine chorus: level 10, rate 0.62, depth 1.8, delay 1,8, phase 5.5
Delay effect is stereo tape: level 5.4, time 606, feedback 1.9, wow 4.4, separation 10
Reverb effect is Fender 65 Spring: level 5.5, decay 5.9, dwell 3.5, diff 10, tone 5.5


That set up you gave me sounds great Scott, unfortunately only been able to try through headphones so far, gut next works nights and is currently sleeping like baby about 15" away.
Will try it "bareback" so to speak ASAP.
Cheers


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