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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:01 am
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scott-uk wrote:
However, with the master volume at 'home' levels, neither sounds its best - the tone is there but doesn't grab you. Maybe this is the issue? There seems to be a 'sweet spot' (that's interestingly about the same on both amps) above which they really come alive. Frustratingly, that spot is at the upper end of acceptable 'home' levels (depending on your neighbourhood and co-habitees of course!). So maybe you can try a slightly higher volume and see if that helps, if a fully-cranked Marshall tone is what you're after.


Though I have a Mustang II, this is exactly the experience I had when I started out with it. I was getting frustrated with the tone sounding boxy and a bit dull. What helped me immensely was setting Master Volume to 4 (4.5 the preferred minimum). Once I figured that out the amp literally came to life. Definitely worth a try. The “sweet spot” might be a bit loud for “home volume” on the higher wattage model depending on your situation but Scott-uk definitely raises some valid points here. The same preset on my amp sounds drastically different as soon as the Master Volume drops below 4.

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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:01 pm
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bruce s wrote:
oczad,
It's worth a try and I would appreciate it if you would like to describe 1 or 2 of you settings. But I'm really beginning to think the amp might be the problem. I can't believe I could be so far away from good sound due to the simple tweaking of the tone knobs as everyone describes.
Buce


sure, but would you rather i send you the patches that you can open in fuse to look at the settings orr load them into your amp? It would be easier for both of us. But if you just want the settings i can post those or PM them to you later tonite or tomorrow, whenever i'm able. Let me know.


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:36 am
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I would appreciate it if you would like to describe 1 or 2 of you settings

Let's not overcomplicate this, it shouldn't be this difficult. If you select the "British 70s" (as an example; or whatever amp you want) amp model, turn off all other effects, and have all the amp controls in reasonable positions, then it should sound 'good' and the sort of sound you're expecting to hear, without needing any magic incantations or obscure settings on the controls. Play with gain, tone, maybe cab emulation. Leave everything else in its default position. A wide range of settings should all sound pretty good, the tweaking is just to fine-tune individual preferences for sound, it's not necessary in order to get an acceptable sound in the first place.

Having said that, if you want a good overdriven Marshall sound, try this:
- Marshall 70s amp model. Or Marshall 80s, whichever you prefer.
- GAIN on 10
- MSTR on 10 (if the amp model has this; it's usually the last control on second page of amp settings)
- BASS on about 3
- TREBLE on about 8
- MID wherever you like it
- The Mustang's physical Master Volume knob on at least 4
- Adjust the Mustang's physical Volume knob to get the desired overall volume
- Experiment with different cab emulations if you want
- Leave all other amp settings on the LCD screen in their default positions

As per earlier post, that works for me and gives a sound pretty similar to my real Marshall.

Also, for a better understanding of the Mustang's controls overall, and how they relate to the modelled amps, read this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=75417

Quote:
But I'm really beginning to think the amp might be the problem

This is a possibility. Have you gone back to the store yet to try their demo Mustang on the shop floor to see if sounds different to yours? This I think is the next step.


Last edited by scott-uk on Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:33 am
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A Note on Mustang "Volume" Controls

I mentioned in an earlier reply one needs to understand the different types of volume control on the Mustang, and others' replies have also touched on this. It is covered in other topics in this forum, but I'll recap here, as getting this right will affect the sound.

The Mustang's Master Volume knob: this is simply a volume knob hard-wired to the Mustang's power amp. It affects the overall output volume of the amp through its own speaker(s). The same Master Volume setting will apply to all presets - this is not a per-preset volume saved as part of the preset (unlike all the other controls below). The Master Volume knob doesn't (shouldn't?) have any effect on the tone or nature of the sound - in the sense that it's not like a valve/tube amp where you're driving power-tube distortion (see "Modelled Amp's Master Volume" below). The Mustang's power amp is clean and linear all the way. Except... as noted in this and other topics, at very low levels the sound does seem to lose some definition. I think this is just a facet of the limitations of physically moving a speaker cone, and the air, and the way our ears perceive sound. Below a certain level, not enough is happening for the full sound to be apparent. Summary: use this knob to set the overall volume for the room/environment where you're playing.

The Mustang's Volume knob: this sets the output volume of each preset, relative to other presets. The setting of this knob is saved with each preset. So when you recall a preset, its saved volume is restored, which may be different to the physical position of the knob. Only when you then turn the knob, will the preset adopt the volume corresponding to the knob position - and this has to be saved again with the preset if you want to keep any changes. Although it looks like an amp control, and appears as one of the modelled amp's settings, this knob doesn't (shouldn't) affect the tone of the modelled amp. It's just the overall loudness of the preset. I will call this knob the "Preset Volume" hereafter. Summary: use this knob to set the volume of different presets relative to each other, (to get them all about the same level, or to deliberately have some louder than others for boosts/solos etc).

The Modelled Amp's Volume Control: this is where it starts to get a bit confusing. First, note importantly, the Mustang's Preset Volume does not correspond to the control labelled "Volume" on the modelled amp - the Preset Volume does something different, as described above. A Fender Twin (FT), for example, has a Volume knob but doesn't have a Gain knob. So the Mustang's Gain control is used to correspond to the FT's Volume control. This makes sense if you think about what the real amp's Volume control is actually doing - it is changing the amp's gain and its tone: to the extent that one can overdrive a Fender Twin, the amp's Volume control is the only way to do it. If the modelled amp has both Gain and Volume controls, you'll need to experiment to find how these are mapped to Mustang controls (I don't have my Mustang in front of me, and even if I did, I don't have time to research and post a comprehensive list of all the control mappings - but see ffxihealer's excellent topic I linked to above, that covers a lot of this stuff too). Summary: you need to experiment to understand how each modelled amp's Volume control is represented on the Mustang, but this isn't critical; each amp model is set up so that it behaves in an 'obvious' way when using the main controls.

Additional Gain Controls: if the real amp has one Gain control, the Mustang's Gain knob will control that. Some real amps have multiple Gain controls, for example the Super-Sonic. One of these will map to the Mustang's physical Gain knob. The other is available as a virtual control on the LCD screen and in FUSE. You need to understand how these multiple gain stages work and interact on the real amp, in order to set them effectively on the Mustang. Or just experiment until it sounds good! If the real amp has no Gain control, then the Mustang's Gain control will correspond to a (pre-amp) Volume control on the real amp (eg see above comments about Fender Twin). The settings for all Gain controls (both the physical Gain knob and any other virtual controls) are saved as part of the preset. So remember to save any changes that you make and like, or they won't be there next time you turn the amp on. In particular, the primary Gain setting comes from the preset, not from the knob position - until you actually turn the knob. Summary:Make sure you understand what real control on the modelled amp the Mustang's physical Gain control maps to, and be aware of any other virtual Gain controls.

Modelled Amp's Master Volume: some amps have Master Volume controls. This has nothing at all to do with the Mustang's own Master Volume control (which I covered above). The modelled amp's Master Volume is only available as virtual control, on the LCD screen or in FUSE. If present, it works exactly the same as the real Master Volume would work for that amp, including nuances of power-amp overdrive etc. Although a real amp's Master Volume does also set its output volume, note this is different to the Mustang's Preset Volume and Master Volume controls (see above). Summary: The modelled amp's Master Volume may/will affect the nature of the sound (deliberately so) as well as its volume. The Mustang's Preset Volume only affects the volume.

That's probably enough, I'm sure others can add to and correct this. I'll put some tips on how actually to use all these controls in a separate reply.


Last edited by scott-uk on Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:58 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:03 am
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Using All The Volume Controls
Further to my post above describing all the different volume-related controls, what's the best way to use them? I'm not sure there is a best way, but here are some ideas on how to methodically adjust them all.

Select a preset to edit. Turn off all effects, to concentrate on just the modelled amp sound, and select the desired amp model. My rule-of-thumb is to get the amp right first, then add any other effects that are necessary afterwards. If one tries to adjust amp and effect settings all at the same time, it becomes impossible to know what control of which effect is influencing the sound.

Set the Mustang's Volume knob (recap: this is simply the overall preset volume, relative to other presets) to about mid-way as a starting point. Set the Mustang's Master Volume (recap: just the 'clean' power-amp level) to a suitable value for the environment: loud enough to hear the full tone of the sound, without annoying anyone!

Familiarise yourself with whatever other volume-related controls this amp model has: there could be one or more Gain controls, possibly a (virtual) Master Volume control on the LCD screen, etc. Set all these mid-way to start with.

Adjust one control at a time, leaving all the others untouched. Pan it through its full range while playing, to understand the effect it has on the sound. Does it principally affect volume, or gain/overdrive/distortion, or a bit of both, or affect the sound in some other way? Do this for all the controls in turn, returning each to its mid-way position before trying the next control.

Tweak the amp's physical Volume and Master Volume controls during this, if necessary to keep the overall output volume sensible.

(Quick aside: note that an overdriven signal, with a certain peak level, will be perceived as louder than a clean signal at the same peak level. Bear this in mind when comparing how different control adjustments affect volume. A signal can be made louder either by increasing its amplitude, or by distorting it more at the same amplitude. This is because a distorted signal has more energy for the same amplitude, and its the total energy in the signal that influences our perception of volume/loudness. NB this explanation is a simplification and refers to typical distortion deliberately added to guitar signals - for completeness it is also possible to distort a signal in ways that lower its energy and thus perceived volume at a given amplitude, but that doesn't happen with guitar amp distortion so needn't worry us here)

At this point you now have a good idea of how all the controls affect the sound. If you are familiar with the original modelled amps, it is also worth researching/experimenting how the Mustang controls map to the original amp's controls: if you're expert at tweaking the real amp it will help you know what controls you're likely to want to change on the Mustang for the same effect.

Also at this point you should have an idea of the type of sound you want to create, and (from previous paragraph) some sense of what settings of the Mustang controls will achieve this. But there are potentially multiple controls on the Mustang. So turn each control a little bit in the direction you think you want. Play a bit. Tweak the controls a bit more. If you're trying to get the right balance across multiple controls, move each one a small amount at a time and see what it sounds like. Only change one control at a time. If the sound works, then move the control a bit more, or move a different control. If a change doesn't get you closer to the sound you want, put that control back where it was and try another control. It could be that after changing that second control, a further change to the first control (that didn't sound right on its own) now sounds better.

Continue until happy. Then SAVE THE PRESET before you lose any settings.

Now, switch back and forth between this new preset and other presets that you use. Adjust the Preset Volume (the Mustang's physical volume knob) for the new preset, until that new preset has the volume you want, relative to other presets that you use. Save the new preset again with the required Preset Volume.

Finally, adjust the Mustang's Master Volume knob so that the overall amp volume is at the level you want, across all the presets you want to use. Remember that Master Volume position, for that room - so that next time you're in that room, you can quickly set the Master Volume correctly.


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:35 am
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scott-uk wrote:
Set the Mustang's Volume knob (recap: this is simply the overall preset volume, relative to other presets) to about mid-way as a starting point. Set the Mustang's Master Volume (recap: just the 'clean' power-amp level) to a suitable value for the environment: loud enough to hear the full tone of the sound, without annoying anyone!


This is important. Because whatever tone settings you enter are going to work best at the level you tweaked the patch at. In other words, if you tweak a patch with the amp's global master on 2, it's going to be horrifically bright at 4. So be sure to tweak them at the volume you intend to use them. I tweak mine very low because i no longer gig. Which by the way is a major disappointment for me because all i can think of is how awesome this amp would have been when i did ! Anyways, what i would do if i did still play out is create 2 banks of my patches, one for stage volume and one for home. But if you play out, be sure to heed the above advice because if you tweak your sounds at low volume then go to a gig hoping for great tone, you're going to have a rude awakening. Not to mention that horrible feeling you probably know where starting time is a few minutes away and you realize you won't be ready because of some gear issue !

By the way, fender if you are listening, how about a global one knob tone control next to the global master ! This would certainly make this amp much easier to use between low and higher volume environments. Do that on the next gen of mustangs and i'm there.


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:04 am
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My pickup are fine.


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:57 am
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quoting Scott
"I think this is just a facet of the limitations of physically moving a speaker cone, and the air, and the way our ears perceive sound. "


that is indeed true, particularly for guitar amp speakers but there are also other factors:
-the human ear is really bad at picking bass tones at low volumes, so anything low volume sounds bright and brittle. as you increase volume you will hear a fuller sound in part by this.
-the speaker impedance, is NOT the same for all frequencies and also not the same for different voltages, so the speaker response will actually change as you crank the volume.
-guitar speakers are really BAD (by design) at reproducing freqs below 100Hz and above 3Khz, so extra volume is required to get anything in those ranges
-there's this bizarre phenomenon called thermal power compression: in a nutshell the speaker does not sound the same when you first turn on your amp, compared to 40 minutes later. Essentially it becomes worse and worse for bass as the speaker coil heats.

as a result, the Mustang 3, if played at low volumes sounds like poop. An easy simplification would be to say that it will start to sound right above Master-volume 3, but as Scott explained, master-volume is just a tiny part of the volume adjustment, which gets influenced by many other factors, most notably the preset "volume" setting.

A more objective way of finding this "sweet spot" would be as follows:
-download and install a sound pressure level app on your smart-phone (I use one called SPL-spectrum analyser which is free and great: https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... umanalyzer)
-place yourself right in front of your mustang speaker (and in line with the cone!) at about 1 metre
-make a peak SPL measurement of your preset until it sounds "good",

to my ears, the mustang 3 sound really good starting at 70dbSPL at 1 meter of the speaker (around 200hz), which is kinda a very loud conversation kind of volume. Less tha this and it sounds like a cheap old-school solid state amp and it looses most of the tube-like sound.

If you HAVE TO play at lower levels than that, what I recommend is:
-get some decent quality recording phones (most of the "DJ" phones will sound like poop because they have so much bass boost and so much treble boost that are totally inadequate for guitar). I got these and are fantastic: AKG K240 for 50$ or so
-go from your mustang line out (fx-send or XLRs or phones out) to an EQ if possible (I use a cheap 20$ Behringher EQ pedal for this) and configure it with an inverted "V"
-pass thru a mixer or phones preamp and thru your phones and be happy :)


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:45 am
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Quote:
My pickup are fine

That's good, worth checking. Have you had a chance to try a different Mustang amp yet to check if it sounds different to yours (to assess whether yours does have a hardware problem)?


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:51 am
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Thanks to everyone for a great read and putting all the time and effort into helping bruce c (and me too)!!! I've just skimmed over everything and will go back for some major digestion. I've experienced all of the same stuff with my MIII V.1 and have tinkered myself to death, with so so results. I even bought the four button foot switch. I'm 64 and not so experienced as everyone else with amps and computers, so this has been a real struggle for me. I've had my amp for a couple years and I've been thinking of trading it out for tube amp with simpler adjustments, but I've always known it was me and not the amp, I'm gonna keep trying! Thanks again!


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:15 am
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I've had a mustang 1 v2 for a couple of months now and have to say I can agree with the original poster somewhat. All the presets were horrible so hastily set about tweeking and messing and eventually came up with some really cool tones.
Now here's the rub; I set them with my headphones on, and mostly they sounded great, was really pleased with my purchase. So much better than my old vox valvetronix which was headed for eBay but- when I returned to the tones, without phones on, they sounded not just a bit different but awful. All the grit, the nice break up on the twin reverb model- gone. Just harsh brittle almost painful tone left.
Have spent weeks and weeks tweeking without phones, admittedly low volumes, to recapture the phone tones but although I can get them slightly better it's nothing like it is through headphones.
Is it me??
Is it the cheap 8" speaker in the mustang 1.? As some have suggested.
Is it just tough chuckle, time to get a more expensive amp, get what you pay for etc??


Last edited by 2Ivanhoe on Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:02 am
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2Ivanhoe wrote:
Is it the cheap 8" speaker in the mustang 1.? As some have suggested.


No doubt thats gotta be a big part of it if not the whole reason. I never played a V1 but from what i read they sound great too aside from the fizz issue which many had. But you have to realize that any time you buy an amp with a speaker smaller than 10", chances are it's gonna be a cr@p speaker because the amp manufacturers do not make thier own speakers. So they have to rely on whatever is out there to choose from, and there is very little in the under 10" range to choose from. And what there IS available is not going to be very good because they are made to go into cheap amps in the under $100 category So i'm sure theres little to no effort made to produce a great speaker. Not to mention the fact a 8" has no low end. Add to that the speaker is a critical element and i think you were right on to think that.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.... I've had a boatload of tube amps including some very expensive boutique ones and actually in my job i have the opportunity to play thru nearly everything you can imagine. Yet my MIII V2 stands to me as an amp that sounds and feels as good as most any tube amp I've owned or played, and i don't even use phones ever.


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:50 am
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Thanks Oczad.
Certainly looking like it's the limitations of the 8" speaker that are the problem.
If I were to upgrade to a II or III how's that gonna cope at low volumes? Only really play at home. Don't suppose there is any way of upgrading the speaker in my I?
Been looking at the fender vaporizer which from the videos on you tube seems to have exactly the tone I'm after, but could be an expensive mistake.


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:15 am
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The MIII is fine at low volume, tho how low do you have to go is the question. No amp of any kind will sound good if you go too low. Part of guitar tone is dependant on getting the speaker cone moving at least a little. Before that certain point it's going to be mush and theres really nothing you can go about that aside from headphones. So if for example you need a amp to play at midnight and there are people sleeping in the next room, nothing is going to sound good lie that.

You can use a different speaker. You'd have to pull the wires off the speaker and add a jack to it then a speaker cable to a seperate cabinet with a speaker that has the same impedance rating. Probably 8 ohm but check first. Or just extend the wires....any number of ways to do it depending on your needs. But also note that you will still be using the mustang's output section which in the MI is tiny and will likely sound different too. The 100 watt MIII will have a cleaner better sounding output section which with a modeler is a good thing unlike a tube amp because the models are designed with a tube amp's output tone already built into the model. Of course you can turn the cam sims off but thats another story. Point is, the MIII V2 should be a big step up in tone, but then again YMMV.

As to the vaporizer, thats a tube amp which 1-compared to the mustang is severely limited in that you have one sound, very little control over it, no pedals. The mustang has dozens of effects and 17 model that can all sound worlds different and infinate control over them. 2- the vaporizer is a tube amp, and you'll have an even worse time getting good low volume tone even with 12 watts, which in a tube amp is actually only 1/2 the volume of a 100 watt tube amp ! Theres no comparison.


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Post subject: Re: Need Mustang help
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:38 am
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It wouldn't have to go ridiculously low, as long as the walls aren't shaking!
But seriously, I play the mustang I at about 4 master volume. Just think a 100 watt amp might a, be wasted in a bedroom at lowish volume and b, seems to be using a sledge hammer to crack the nut.
Might look into upgrading the speaker. Shame really as it is frustratingly good through the headphones!


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