It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:19 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
Post subject: Need a Solid State 'and' a Tube Amp?
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 12:31 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 10:20 am
Posts: 39
Seems many on the net place amps into two distinct categories, either Solid State or Tube. And that the sound they each are capable of producing is vastly different. That if you want a 'solid state sound' you need a solid state amp and if you want a 'tube sound' you need a tube amp.

Do you guys own both? For the reasons above?

I'm a newer owner of a Mustang III, it's seems to be a great solid state modeling amp capable of many sounds including very near the warmth of a tube amp sound. But I got a good listen to a Tone King Imperial and loved it. Can a solid state modeling amp emulate a tube amp as well as a tube amp?

Should my M-III be the solid state amp I own but the Tone King be the tube amp I also own?


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: Need a Solid State 'and' a Tube Amp?
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 1:36 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:37 am
Posts: 1315
Location: England
This doesn't really answer the question, just offering a personal opinion based on my own similar experience.

A solid-state (SS) amp that isn't a modelling amp is just going to make the guitar strings sound louder. It isn't going to add anything to the sound. Unless that's exactly what you want, I wouldn't bother with this type of amp.

A modelling amp (which could be solid-state or hybrid: SS and valve/tube) is great value. You get lots of different sounds, in one convenient package. For almost any purpose (home practice, recording, live performance) it's going to be perfectly good for the job. I was convinced that modelling amps (I have a Mustang) were the way to go.

Then I demo'ed, and bought, a Fender Super-Sonic. A valve amp. Whether it's the valves or just higher quality build/components/whatever, there's something about its sound that is just better than the Mustang. And I'm absolutely not being a "tube snob" or being emotionally biased (haha) in favour of valves.

The best way I can describe it as that the sound of the Mustang is a (near-)perfect facsimile of the real thing, but sterile. It's amplifying the sound. The Super-Sonic has 'life' to it, and feels like an extension of the guitar - you are 'playing' the amp, it's more than just amplifying the sound.

But that's just me playing in an otherwise quiet room. In a band setting or a crowded room, I genuinely don't think there'd be a perceptible difference to anyone else. Plus I'd far rather take the Mustang to a gig than my (expensive!) Super-Sonic.

However, not all valve amps have that effect on me. A friend has a Mesa Boogie Lone Star and a Blackstar HT Stage 20. Both valve amps (nb for complete accuracy the Blackstar has some SS bits too, but it isn't a hybrid, both pre- and power-amps are valve). My friend's Mesa Boogie is a joy to use and listen to. The Blackstar is 'just' an amplifier. I can't quantify the difference, there just is one. Note the Blackstar is much cheaper than the Mesa, so presumably has lower quality build and components, etc. Possibly speaker quality is key here.

The question I'd love to know the answer to is: if Fender were to make a Mustang (modelling amp) to the same build and component quality as the Super-Sonic (or the Deluxe Reverb, etc, any of their higher-end amps), would it sound the same as the current Mustang, or would it have that indefinable better sound of the Super-Sonic et al?


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Need a Solid State 'and' a Tube Amp?
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 2:30 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:41 pm
Posts: 66
I wont be much help here but, I use the mustang 3 with the band and most can't tell if it's a tube amp or not. To me it is just a bit more sterle than tubes but with the amp dialed in and cranked up with the full band going it sounds fine. I spent over 40yrs playing thru a fender twin so I know how tubes sound and work but I also really am glad about the weight factor. That was my main reason for getting the mustang. Plus even though the m3 is rated at 100 watts it still is nowhere near as loud as the twin was.
I'm sure this didn't help much but there ya go.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Need a Solid State 'and' a Tube Amp?
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 4:02 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:46 pm
Posts: 453
I have owned a number of tube and SS amps over the years. My MIV V2 sounds better than any other I have owned including a Blues Deluxe (not the reissue. ) I plan on building a tube clone this year, not so much because I see the 'stang falling short. But for fun. The MIV will be my main amp for a long time.

_________________
Archtop Bill aka Alder Statesman

Check out my finger-style guitar tracks at www.soundcloud.com/billmcmannis


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Need a Solid State 'and' a Tube Amp?
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 4:18 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 10:20 am
Posts: 39
Is there a difference between Digital vs Solid State modeling? Also, are Tube and Valve the same thing?


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Need a Solid State 'and' a Tube Amp?
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 10:24 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:50 pm
Posts: 4602
Location: ˚ɷ˚
Codeseven wrote:
Is there a difference between Digital vs Solid State modeling? Also, are Tube and Valve the same thing?

1: Yes. Solid state amps are, contrary to what many believe, analog. They use transistors instead of tubes, but transistors are analog. Digital modeling involves converting the signal to digital, processing it, and then converting it back to analog again.

2: Yes. There are valves that aren't tubes[*] and tubes that aren't valves[**], but you can safely assume that when talking about guitar amps, someone saying valve instead of tube will be someone using the British term instead of the American term.
Note that the number designation can also change with the language, so a 12AX7 vacuum tube is the same as an ECC83 valve.

[*]: Like fluorescent segmented displays.
[**]: Like nixie tubes, the old glowing filament numbers seen in old cash registers.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Need a Solid State 'and' a Tube Amp?
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 11:47 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 10:20 am
Posts: 39
arth1 wrote:
Codeseven wrote:
Is there a difference between Digital vs Solid State modeling? Also, are Tube and Valve the same thing?

1: Yes. Solid state amps are, contrary to what many believe, analog. They use transistors instead of tubes, but transistors are analog. Digital modeling involves converting the signal to digital, processing it, and then converting it back to analog again.

2: Yes. There are valves that aren't tubes[*] and tubes that aren't valves[**], but you can safely assume that when talking about guitar amps, someone saying valve instead of tube will be someone using the British term instead of the American term.
Note that the number designation can also change with the language, so a 12AX7 vacuum tube is the same as an ECC83 valve.

[*]: Like fluorescent segmented displays.
[**]: Like nixie tubes, the old glowing filament numbers seen in old cash registers.


Thank you arth1.

So is my M-III Digital or Analog? Is one better than the other?


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Need a Solid State 'and' a Tube Amp?
Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 12:48 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:37 am
Posts: 1315
Location: England
Quote:
So is my M-III Digital or Analog? Is one better than the other?

The Mustang is both. It has analogue solid-state amplification as well as digital modelling.

I'm not sure it's meaningful to ask if one is better than the other; they aren't interchangeable, they're doing different things. Every amp, however 'digital' it is, will at some point have an 'analogue' part (which could be valve or solid-state), if only to do the final power amplification (as ultimately an analogue voltage/current is needed to drive the speaker in a smooth waveform. Conversely, all(?) modelling amps will have a digital section for the modelling, even if most of the amplification parts are analogue - and again, those analogue parts could be solid-state or valves (or a mixture of both).

Further, there are all sorts of mixes of technologies in amps; purists object to modern Marshall "valve" amps using op-amps (a solid-state analogue technology) for parts of the circuit. The Blackstar HT series use a mixture of solid-state and valve technologies to achieve their range of tones at a reasonable price-point. The VOX VR amps use one(?) valve to get a valve-sounding amp in an otherwise solid-state circuit. The Line 6 "Spider Valve" has a mixture of solid-state, valve and digital modelling, all in one box. Then, many "all valve" amps have a solid-state rectifier in the power supply - some say that doesn't matter because it's not in the audio signal path, for others it's anathema. And so on.

NB I'm British and speak English so I say "valve" rather than "tube" :-) The term "valve" is based on what it does, by analogy with a physical valve in eg a water pipe; the term "tube" comes from a physical description of what it is.

Wikipedia has articles on "vacuum tube" and "valve amplifier" which may provide more background on all this if you're interested.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Need a Solid State 'and' a Tube Amp?
Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 4:36 am
Offline
Roadie
Roadie

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:11 am
Posts: 299
If we've learned anything from watching the "InTheBlues" series on YouTube, it's clear that if you master tweaking the included models in the Mustang it's flexible enough to be able to emulate pretty much any type of amp pretty darn well. At least well enough that 99% of your audience could never tell the difference. But therein lies the rub. You have to know how to use it..and that can be a pretty daunting task if you're new to the whole modeling amp scene.

A lot of people new to the Mustang are overwhelmed by the sheer volume of presets and spend months figuring out which ones might be useful. But to me the real key is understanding that there are a handful of built-in amp models, each with their own basic characteristics but cover a pretty broad range of general amp types. By learning how to start with one of the basic models that closely resembles another amp, you can tweak the deep parameters through the Fuse software to get pretty close to almost any amp you want. It's tedious, but worth the effort.

For this reason I don't particularly see a need to have another amp tube or not. So far I haven't come across anything I can't get pretty close to with just a little time and effort in tweaking settings.

_________________
Gibson Les Paul Standard
Gibson 335
Gretsch G5420T
Fender American Strat
Martin GPCPA1 Plus Grand Performer
Fender Mustang IV v.2


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Need a Solid State 'and' a Tube Amp?
Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 6:05 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:12 pm
Posts: 520
Location: Perth, Western Aus.
scott-uk wrote:
A solid-state (SS) amp that isn't a modelling amp is just going to make the guitar strings sound louder. It isn't going to add anything to the sound.

Vox Pathfinder, Peavey Bandit and Roland Chorus owners (incl BB King) would probably disagree.

dunedindragon wrote:
You have to know how to use it..and that can be a pretty daunting task if you're new to the whole modeling amp scene.
A lot of people new to the Mustang are overwhelmed by the sheer volume of presets and spend months figuring out which ones might be useful.

Most of the factory presets suck.

It gets as simple as any other non modelling amp when you turn of all the Fx and gain and start each model from a clean setting. Then it's the same as using any other amp with EQ and master volume. adding in Fx as required.

The 'difficulty' in using a Mustang is getting to know, and get the best out of 8 amps at once instead of one.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Need a Solid State 'and' a Tube Amp?
Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 11:35 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 10:20 am
Posts: 39
Thanks guys.

I would love to not get another amp to fill in for Tube/Valve tones I think I'm missing out on. Sounds like my M-III is fully capable of getting very close a true warm valve amps tones. However unless I can find a user preset that someone knowledgeable has been kind enough to already have done the footwork on, then I've got to figure out how to do it on my own which may not be a bad idea (hey, you've got an amp now learn how to use it!) but I have the feeling it's allot more complicated and time consuming than most owners want to have to have to deal with.

There's a hundred presets already available on my amp but only three or four that I like and none that have that tube sound I hear from tube amps. Does that make it a bad amp? No, but it does mean settle for the few stock presets you might like, download a bunch of presets until you finally find a couple you really like or put the time, research and study into figuring out how to do it yourself.

I bought the M-III for it's versatility. Sounds like it can do that but it's not as simple as pulling it out of the box and plugging it in. It may have 100 preset slots available but I think theres some work ahead of me to finally end up with maybe 10 presets that I really like.

Do you guys make your own presets or do you just keep downloading user made presets, by Rating or Popularity, until you find something you like?


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Need a Solid State 'and' a Tube Amp?
Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 12:31 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:43 pm
Posts: 318
Here's the thing Codeseven, what sounds good to one person may sound like azz to the next. Unfortunately, most people will agree with your and Drubbing's opinion of the factory presets, my self included. In my own experience, almost every piece of equipment I have ever bought that had factory preset on them - the majority were pure $#*%. The only exception is my Bronco 40 - most of the factory presets are quite good.

However, if you go through the presets, you'll find some prefixed with "Basic". These are not intended to be finished presets but instead, a jumping off point in crafting your own. There are no effects on any of them - just the raw amps. These are also the same exact defaults that get loaded when you start a new preset from scratch or change a preset's amp model on an existing preset in FUSE. They may be the best place to start learning the different amp models.

I used to use them myself. But, I had a problem with them as they all start with the amp model colored in some way so I made my own set and labeled them "Naked" (Naked '57 Champ, Naked '57 Deluxe etc.). On these I set all the EQ's to flat, all the Gains to right at mild breakup ("matched SAG, adjusted BIAS) and adjusted their Volumes so that they all gave me about -10dB running into my DAW (headphone out>mixer>interface>DAW). Also, unlike the "Basic" presets, none of the controls are "grayed" out ie. if the real amp had reverb/tremolo, the "Naked" preset got it too. But no other effects.

In this way, it's more like starting with the real amp in front of me (at least IMO). It's a lot easier for me to decide if I actually need to toss in an effect. I think a lot of people go crazy with the effects, just bc they're there and forget that the basic underlying amp should sound good before you add them in. Then again, a lot of popular music is heavily effected.

You don't mention just what genre's your interested in but if you start a thread here asking for help with crafting tones in a particular genre you may get some help with it.

Doing it on your own will require you to research the equipment used by your favorite artist(s) so that you can choose appropriate amp models and effects.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Need a Solid State 'and' a Tube Amp?
Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 3:26 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 10:20 am
Posts: 39
Thank you p90sdude.

I didn't know the prefixed 'basic' information. Also, I like your view on your 'Naked' presets, I'm going to check them out if their available and use those and the basic presets as a base to make some of my own.

I like all sorts of music. I'm learning Blues at the moment but I dig Rush, Metallica, Foo Fighters, Jack White and Pearl Jam too.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Need a Solid State 'and' a Tube Amp?
Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 5:37 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:12 pm
Posts: 520
Location: Perth, Western Aus.
Codeseven wrote:
There's a hundred presets already available on my amp but only three or four that I like and none that have that tube sound I hear from tube amps. Does that make it a bad amp? No, but it does mean settle for the few stock presets you might like, download a bunch of presets until you finally find a couple you really like or put the time, research and study into figuring out how to do it yourself.


Then change them. Fender chose to set up certain amp models a certain way, and most of them are overblown for gain and multi effects. Phaser with echo? Please. What music are those dudes listening to?

Every amp model can be cleaned up. You just go to a preset and turn off the gain and fx using those knobs or the screen. You've then got the clean sound of that amp. I found downloading others presets was hit and miss, and just tweaked it to however it sounded good to me. Having experience with amps and certain pedals helps a lot, I don't, so initially found the Mustang hard work.

Also, just because Fender put 8 or so amps on there doesn't mean you have to use them all. I ditched the Supersonic and hi gain stuff. Don't ever play anything like that. Replaced them with different settings of amps I do use.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Need a Solid State 'and' a Tube Amp?
Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 6:33 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:43 pm
Posts: 318
Drubbing wrote:
...Also, just because Fender put 8 or so amps on there doesn't mean you have to use them all. I ditched the Supersonic and hi gain stuff. Don't ever play anything like that. Replaced them with different settings of amps I do use.


That's my view as well. I haven't found a use for the American '90s or Metal 2000 models either. I initially crossed off the Super Sonic as well but then I learned how to tame the beast (see below) and it now has a place in my arsenal.

Codeseven wrote:
...Also, I like your view on your 'Naked' presets, I'm going to check them out if their available and use those and the basic presets as a base to make some of my own.


Well, I never really uploaded the "Naked" set to the data base mostly because they aren't what most people are looking for and I figured it would just be a waste of effort, most people are looking for a finished product all wrapped up in a bow rather than a template for rolling their own. And then there's the "Basic" presets that suffice for those that do want something like a template...

I could upload them but I would have to edit all 12 of them with tags and descriptions of what they're for so as not to recieve comments such as "These are the worst set of presets in the data base - if I could give them negative stars I would". And that's no exajuration as they are not exactly awe inspiring out of the box - they're ment to be a blank slate. Even the American '90s and Metal 2000 models are fairly tame (those that use those models would probably say "lame").

Think about it and let me know if your still interested in them.

Some links to help you get a grip on learning/using some of the Mustang models:

Here's a thread discussing the '65 Deluxe Reverb model vs a real '65 Deluxe Reverb:

http://forums.fender.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=89769

Here's a thread about understanding the SuperSonic model (really helped me - once I understood about the cascading gains it was much easier to manage the model):

http://forums.fender.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=91471

Heres a How To by jedi2b on Saturated vs Overdriven Tone:

http://forums.fender.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=88773

Feed your head.


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: