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Post subject: Sag Switch Issues
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:59 am
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Hi,
Maybe it's just a coincidence, but after to have updated the firmware to the latest version (Mustang3 V. 2.2) I recently noticed that in some amp models Sag parameter has partial action (or doesn't work at all) , whether it is a saturated tone or a clean tone .
First i realized this by trying to change the attack response in the British Watts: does not change whether i switch from Match ( default) to Less or to More.
Then trying other models I've seen that happens also in part on some other type of amplifier .. such as British 60s : the response seems to remain the same by switching from Match to Less. It changes by switching from Match to More.

I would like understand if this problem , especially in the British Watts in which the sag is completely non-functional , is derived from a possible firmware bug ( and in this case should be fixed as soon as possible) or if it was the same in the previous firmware ...

At the moment I do not use the stereo outputs so I could also do without the new feature of the stereo reverb if a previous firmware can solve the problems with the sag .
EDIT: No, the precedent firmware can't solve the problems.
Dimitri
(in red the setting with problems)

'57 twin : Match <-> Less (not working) ;Match <-> More (changes: compression)

'65 princeton: Match <-> Less (not working); Match <-> More (changes: compression)

'65 Twin : Match <-> Less (not working); Match <-> More (changes:compression)

british watts: Match <-> Less (not working); Match <-> More (not working)

british '60: Match <-> Less (not working); Match <-> More (changes: compression)

Supersonic: Match <-> Less (changes: expansion); Match <-> More (not working)

when the switch works you can hear the electric pop of the switch particularly while there is signal from guitar.. in the other cases you can't hear any electric switch effect... it is just a graphical change on amp display or on Fuse but doesn't have effect on the tone of amplifier.


Last edited by frondizi on Tue May 06, 2014 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Sag Switch Issues
Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 6:03 pm
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Hi,
i would like to know from other users if you are experiencing the same behaviour/problem i'm experiencing in my amp (M3 V2 firmware 2.2 or 2.1) for what concerning the Sag parameter behaviour in the model amp i listed in the precedent post and where i have give all the details of problems founds.
I would like to hear something also from the users of Mustang Version 1 just for those amp models in the list that was included also in Mustang V.1... so:'65 Princeton, '65 Twin, British '60, Supersonic.

I tried to do the tests suggested by TSL engineers (push or in other words drive harder the virtual power amp level in several ways :
by virtual master vol. at 10, then master v. at 10 + gain at 10 or just gain at 10 if the model doesn't have a master v.;
(and i add my test:all the precedent with also bias at +50% just to be complete)

but i can't find any changes (even listening by headphones) as you would expect if the problem was just an insufficient level output (to engage the Sag phenomenon) from the virtual power amp section, which should overpower the virtual p. transformer if the power level required to it, is higher than it can handle...
but sometimes as explained, doesn't work even the "Less" setting that is the opposite phenomenon: dynamics expansion rather than compression (almost as if in the real thing it was used a more powerful power transformer in such a way as to prevent the typical rate of compression of the reference amp... or was used a solid state amp stage)

thanks for your help
Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Sag Switch Issues
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:23 pm
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So,
am i the only to experience these problems?

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Sag Switch Issues
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 4:08 pm
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I have not had any issues, but then my amp is v1. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Sag Switch Issues
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 12:40 am
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strings10927 wrote:
I have not had any issues, but then my amp is v1. :wink:


This is exactly what I remembered :
also in my M3 Version 1, i had no experienced problems of that kind...
if there are any you would notice them sooner or later, especially those who make often tweaking by advanced parameters (Sag switch in fact).


Other user opinions?

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Sag Switch Issues
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 12:42 am
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Quote:
the only to experience these problems

You have observed a perceived behaviour of the amp. That behaviour isn't what you think it should be. It's a bit of a jump to presume there's a problem.

Quote:
British 60s ... the response seems to remain the same by switching from Match to Less

Do you have a real VOX AC30 to hand? Have you modified the real amp to have less sag and listened to the difference? Maybe 'less' sag on a real AC30 doesn't actually make a perceivable difference to the sound, and maybe this is what Fender are correctly modelling in the Mustang?

Quote:
SAG parameter ... trying to change the attack response

I've never heard sag being used to change attack response. An amp's sag will have a sort-of compressor effect on the sound, but it's a subtle effect with no specific control. If it happens to audibly affect the perceived attack response of a sound, then that's a by-product, that isn't specifically what it can be used to control.

Also, at what volume are you testing all this? SAG occurs (in a real valve/tube amp, with a valve rectifier) when the amp's power supply is having to work hard (ie delivering full power / full volume) and the internal resistance/impedance in the rectifier circuit causes a voltage drop (so there's less voltage available to drive the rest of the amp). Unless you're driving an amp hard, I'd expect sag to have no or very negligible audible effect on the sound.

If Fender are modelling all this correctly, then unless you have your Mustang turned all the way up to 11 (in terms of the modelled amp controls, if not the Mustang's own master volume) I wouldn't expect changes in the 'sag' setting to be particularly noticeable.

Quote:
a possible firmware bug ( and in this case should be fixed as soon as possible)

If you genuinely still believe there is a firmware bug (and personally I doubt it) then you should report that directly to Fender. However, given the subtlety of the SAG adjustment at the best of times, I'm not sure I'd class this as a "soon as possible" fix. I can think of plenty of other FUSE/firmware features I'd rather have before this one! :-)

Quote:
when the switch works you can hear the electric pop of the switch

There is no physical switch. When you change the SAG parameter, it's just changing a software value in the DSP. So I'm not sure what would be causing an electric 'pop.' (Unless Fender's modelling is deliberately inserting electrical pops into the signal to recreate the ambience of noisy switches on vintage amps :-)

Personally, I've never felt the need to play with the SAG settings. It's a minor, specialised setting with a subtle effect on the sound. What my fingers do on the strings will always have far more effect (usually negative!) on the sound than anything in the amp. If it were me, I'd spend my time improving what my fingers do than worrying about a tiny setting like this.


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Post subject: Re: Sag Switch Issues
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 7:06 am
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scott-uk wrote:
I've never heard sag being used to change attack response. An amp's sag will have a sort-of compressor effect on the sound, but it's a subtle effect with no specific control. If it happens to audibly affect the perceived attack response of a sound, then that's a by-product, that isn't specifically what it can be used to control.


Well, a transistor amp or solid state amp (as was my old Laney World series 60) has an harder response or attack compared to valve state because it doesn't compress the signal.

Quote:
If Fender are modelling all this correctly, then unless you have your Mustang turned all the way up to 11 (in terms of the modelled amp controls, if not the Mustang's own master volume) I wouldn't expect changes in the 'sag' setting to be particularly noticeable.



Then, why in the Marshall amp models (and many others) the action of the SAG is so clear and indisputable with both More and Less settings? and this even at lower volumes.

anyway, i found some subtle change driving very hard British '60 model and another model included in my precedent list but in other 4 cases i wasn't able to get the change (match -> more or match -> Less according to the specific case notified) expecially in the case of the British Watts that is the reference of this problem:
you can drive the power amp as harder as you want (Master V. at 10 and/or Gain at 10) even boosted with the fuzz at high gains/level (it is just to test , is not suitable to play because the preamp hard clipping limiter causes also strong volume oscillations) , but i can't get any even subtle variation on the tone neither with Less setting nor with More setting. It doesn't work at all and it is strange: i don't think that an amp well modeled can be totally exempt from Sag. It is a model of a valve state stack amp.
(i mean at the moment, on my amp; i don't know what happens on other amps for this reason i'm loking for a comparison in the forum)

With the exception of Studio Preamp which in some way reflects the behaviour of a solid state studio preamp, and of course must not have that parameter (working).

Quote:
If you genuinely still believe there is a firmware bug (and personally I doubt it) then you should report that directly to Fender.


Before to have written other post in this topic i contacted TSL as said and i have already notified that after the further tests i continue to experience such kind of problems starting from the British Watts model.

Quote:
There is no physical switch. When you change the SAG parameter, it's just changing a software value in the DSP. So I'm not sure what would be causing an electric 'pop.'

there is no physical switch of course, we are dealing with mathematical algorithms, but at high volumes /gains in most DSP (for example my Roland GR55) you often can hear a little noise (in a quiet room) a kind of puff, that indicates the changing of the state (off to on) and it is particularly audible if it involve a raising of gain (a distortion effect switched on to say..). Of course is very very quiet compared to an electrical switch.

Quote:
Personally, I've never felt the need to play with the SAG settings. It's a minor, specialised setting with a subtle effect on the sound.


Do you remember what Jedi2B (or perhaps another user) said about this function?

The Sag parameter setting to More can be used in a wise way to get an additional soft natural compression when you can't use the compressor effect because you need a fuzz /booster/overdrive in preamp effects section ...
in my case (forgetting for a moment the other models with partial problems) with the British Watts i can't get that extra compression because i have already the fuzz before the preamp... and i also can't get, when i need it , more dynamics on clean tones (by Less setting) than the Match setting.
So, given the actual state of the things (just one effect active for every family) i would not consider it a minor setting.

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Sag Switch Issues
Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 12:04 pm
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a bit inline with what Scott is saying, I would suggest:

-cranking amp gain to max
-put guitar volume to max

and THEN try different sag settings.

I would also probably increase a fair bit the master volume during testing for the following reason:
-SAG = normal would indicate that some amount of SAG (=compression) is occurring
-then moving SAG = less would take away some of that compression
-taking away compression essentially means eliminating some higher order harmonics and adding a minute amount of volume to the fundamental frequency
-as the mustang speaker is not particularly good at high frequencies, probably the change from normal to less (hence the elimination of high frequency harmionics) is so subtle as to be inaudible, except probably if you increase the master volume a bit more


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Post subject: Re: Sag Switch Issues
Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 5:28 pm
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jedi2b wrote:
a bit inline with what Scott is saying, I would suggest:

-cranking amp gain to max
-put guitar volume to max

and THEN try different sag settings.


Hi friend, the Sag as you know has just 2 settings : Less and More (Match is the default of the amp modelled)
i have "cancelled" from the list a pair of the six models i listed previously, because i recently was able to get a subtle effect with the setting with problem, by driving very hard the virtual power amp of British '60 and another, i think it was the model of '65 Twin Reverb..
for the other 4 models listed i have not been able to find even a very subtle effect , particularly the British Watts which doesn't react at all neither at More setting nor al Less setting. Of course, i have follow the suggestion by TSL engineer to put the Master in the model at 10 , and/or the Gain at 10 (if there is not a Master ) ... there was already the Fuzz effect at high settings before the preamp of British Watts to help to drive harder the amp , the guitar volume of humbuckers (alnico V on Yamaha SG) was set to 10 too... nothing can trigger the Sag on British Watts, at least in my amp, in any of the two settings available.
Are you able to get some effect from More and/or Less in this model. If yes what settings are you using? and it would be the signal that my amp could has some problem..
and need technical support or/and a replacement (i have still 1 year of warranty )




Quote:
]I would also probably increase a fair bit the master volume during testing for the following reason:
-SAG = normal would indicate that some amount of SAG (=compression) is occurring
-then moving SAG = less would take away some of that compression
-taking away compression essentially means eliminating some higher order harmonics and adding a minute amount of volume to the fundamental frequency
-as the mustang speaker is not particularly good at high frequencies, probably the change from normal to less (hence the elimination of high frequency harmionics) is so subtle as to be inaudible, except probably if you increase the master volume a bit more


Really, there are most models which i have not included in the list of course, in which the Less (and the More) setting works clearly and i don't need even to raise the physical Master and the Volume so much... the effect i can hear is a rate of compression or expansion (with a raising of perceived volume and attack) according if the setting is More or Less.

for example British '70 reacts to Less and to More, very strong. It is impossible to say "it doesn't work" ... the Less, expand the dynamics in an unmistakable way even at low output volumes.
Other models can react in a more subtle way but there is a reaction in both settings.

So, if in the next days you could do a Sag test on amp models of the list and let me know your results and the settings you used to replicate the test, we could do a comparison and then i would be able to decide what to do in case of a possible fault on my amp.

thanks
Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Sag Switch Issues
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 12:59 pm
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I did the testing at max gain, max guitar volume and max amp volume with the british watts model and you are right, the SAG parameter does not affect the sound at all.


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Post subject: Re: Sag Switch Issues
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 4:21 pm
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jedi2b wrote:
I did the testing at max gain, max guitar volume and max amp volume with the british watts model and you are right, the SAG parameter does not affect the sound at all.


Very good! (so to speak): I thought I had the usual misfortune of Donald and that depended merely by a fault in my amp :-)

it's a sin, because British Watts is an important model (but also the other models with partial problems) and I would see all working perfectly in all their functions including parameter Sag, which expands the flexibility of use.

thanks
Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Sag Switch Issues
Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 3:27 pm
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Quote:
it's a sin, because British Watts is an important model (but also the other models with partial problems) and I would see all working perfectly in all their functions including parameter Sag, which expands the flexibility of use.

Similar to my earlier question to you: have you compared the Mustang against a real HiWatt amp; specifically does the change (or not) in sound when you modify the real amp's "sag" (by some means?) match or differ from what the Mustang does?

It still seems to me at the moment that you have a preconception of how 'sag' might behave on a HiWatt and are unhappy because the Mustang doesn't match that preconception. It may well be that the Mustang is accurately mimicking what the HiWatt does.

Just because 'sag' on the Mustang has a noticeable effect on Marshall models (as per your earlier post) doesn't mean that 'sag' will have the same effect on all models, if it is indeed genuinely modelling the particular amps. It sounds to me what you actually want is a synthetic effect added to the amp model, rather than an accurate emulation?

At this point only Fender can answer the question what the 'sag' values are actually doing, whether that's what Fender intend them to do, and indeed what that intention is (an accurate emulation or a created effect?). Also, if the 'sag' effect is indeed less on the latest firmware, as you believe, then is that an error by Fender or is it deliberate - perhaps they have actually improved the realism of the 'sag' for particular amp models?


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Post subject: Re: Sag Switch Issues
Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 5:58 pm
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scott-uk wrote:
Similar to my earlier question to you: have you compared the Mustang against a real HiWatt amp; specifically does the change (or not) in sound when you modify the real amp's "sag" (by some means?) match or differ from what the Mustang does?

It still seems to me at the moment that you have a preconception of how 'sag' might behave on a HiWatt and are unhappy because the Mustang doesn't match that preconception. It may well be that the Mustang is accurately mimicking what the HiWatt does.

Just because 'sag' on the Mustang has a noticeable effect on Marshall models (as per your earlier post) doesn't mean that 'sag' will have the same effect on all models, if it is indeed genuinely modelling the particular amps. It sounds to me what you actually want is a synthetic effect added to the amp model, rather than an accurate emulation?

At this point only Fender can answer the question what the 'sag' values are actually doing, whether that's what Fender intend them to do, and indeed what that intention is (an accurate emulation or a created effect?). Also, if the 'sag' effect is indeed less on the latest firmware, as you believe, then is that an error by Fender or is it deliberate - perhaps they have actually improved the realism of the 'sag' for particular amp models?


Yes, i would like that Fender would take part to the discussion to give their version of facts.
I found the same behaviour in 2.1 and 2.2 firmwares. I don't know how it was in the factory firmware 2.0... i'm not able to find that early version to download.
I don't know the sag on the real thing: i didn't have the honour to try a real Hiwatt, not yet.
However i have the Guitar Rig 5 on my pc, and the Sag knob on the High White model reacts in a clear way in all its range (0.00-10) ... there are stored from factory 2 default presets for this amp, of course is not just sag to change... anyway: in Clean preset, the Sag was set to 0, and in Crunch preset the Sag was set to 5.
With Sag at half you get a tone more compressed but not too much... probably is equivalent to Match on Mustangs..
If you set the Sag at max you get a very compressed tone i would say at least 3-4 times the compression you get at minimum setting, and the output volume is reduced enough..
The Sag at 0 should be the equivalent to Less on Mustangs , instead the Sag at 10 probably could be even beyond "More"... perhaps a More in the range of Mustangs could be a 6-7 in Guitar Rig for this amp ... only hypothesis of course.

in the manual unfortunately there is just this generic explanation: " SAG simulates what happens to a tube amplifier when given a large signal-- the power supply voltage cannot deliver the necessary power for a fraction of a second. Increasing SAG adds a compressed feel to the amplifier as would occur with a tube-based rectifier circuit, while turning it down reduces the amount of compression, similar to a
silicon diode-based rectifier circuit."
Other examples: for a Twin Reverb model and a clean tone preset , the Sag was set from factory at 2.0... so in this case (in other twin R. presets is at half) there is not so much range to go toward a Less position (0) but there are plenty range to go toward a more compressed tone. EDIT : in this case it reflects the behaviour i explained in the list about Fender Twin '65 : Match <-> Less (not working); Match <-> More (changes:compression). What is true is true..

that's can be interesting too: In a Tweed model (just 3 main knobs: vol. normal ,vol. bright, tone) the Sag at max even silences the sound in the same way that Bias at minimum even suppresses the signal on a Plexi , Marshall model and some other vintage model. (Probably the Bias on Guitar Rig must have a range -100% / +100%)

Perhaps those strange behaviours reflect really the responses in real things under certain extreme condictions, however i don't think a real HiWatt is totally immune from Sag so that you can't reduce and/or expand at least a little its dynamic response compared to the default. In the hypothesis it was already at maximum dynamics not compressed tone closer to a solid state amp, should be always possible to go toward a range of more compressed tones and vice versa.

To want to be a little picky you should do it again also an old question:
why in the model British Watts was not included also the Normal channel volume? it is useful to get a more rounded and cleaner tone and usually a standard setting is a mixed amount of Normal and Bright volume (the same for a Fender Bassman or a Marshall Plexi which have their parameter to balance the volume amount of 2 channels)

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Sag Switch Issues
Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 4:21 am
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The only problem here is at the very end of the power to amp to cable to guitar chain.

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Post subject: Re: Sag Switch Issues
Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 4:31 am
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jwoertz wrote:
The only problem here is at the very end of the power to amp to cable to guitar chain.


Hi,
could you explain me with one example what did you mean?
sorry, but i am afraid i didn't understand ...

Dimitri


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