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Post subject: Abandoning Mustang because Fender already has...
Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:49 pm
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I've finally had it after last night's gig. Fender has abandoned the Mustang platform and its really sad since IMO it is the best modeling amp ever created. I can deal with the fact that it lacks many features that virtually all other modelers have. I can deal with the fact that they won't update the Mustang Floor. I would love to use that for small gigs direct into the PA instead of bringing my MIII v2. I can even deal with the fact that they won't come out with a professional foot controller. I create logical sets for my show. But I can no longer deal with the fact that it takes a half an hour to rearrange my sets. Fuse does not allow simple dragging, copying or moving patches. Since this absolutely basic function is still missing from Fuse I'm abandoning my Mustang. I make my living from music an I can no longer deal with this. Since this and other basic professional functions are still missing I can only conclude that Fender has abandoned the platform. I require modelers for my gig but I need basic features that even free software provides.

Sorry for the rant but I'm pretty fed up. I just ordered a Blackstar ID 30 so I'm sure I'll get over it soon enough. It's really a shame Fender doesn't care about them because the Mustangs sound incredible but they are apparently only designed for for bedroom use and are treated like an end-of-life product by Fender.


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Post subject: Re: Abandoning Mustang because Fender already has...
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:00 am
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it would have been even more of a pain in the a** to rearrange presets with my old MIDI rack setup. I had to do everything on the devices, no computer interface available at that time.

I used to play in cover bands and we had huge set lists that required several banks of presets. I certainly didn't move my presets around every time the setlist changed. :shock:

Too bad the Mustang amps don't do what you want to do ... any idea what you'd replace it with?

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Post subject: Re: Abandoning Mustang because Fender already has...
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:32 am
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I'm with you on this "vintagevibe", I have a Mustang Floor that I like very much and I can deal with the quirks and missing functionalities but I also feel that Fender has abandoned the product and specifically the FUSE application. Nothing new for a very long time! Too bad!

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Post subject: Re: Abandoning Mustang because Fender already has...
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:14 pm
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Hi,
the Fender TLS in the person of Alan, as said in a precedent topic, a few months ago told me that he would do everything possible to solicit an update to Fuse for the problem that I pointed out: different scales between the parameters of the effects on Fuse (0-100%) and effects parameters on the display of the amplifier (in my case Mustang3 V .2,
1.0-10 scale as in real Fender amps in most cases)
Regarding the firmware update of the amp Mustangs came out a few days ago a new one: 2.2.
I don't think they have abbandoned the FUSE platform ...
i guess some update will be out in the following months, as soon as possible, even for FUSE. If only because honor the promise to solve the problem reported by me and another they found in that review, and that I did not even know but that must be solved.

If I can say my opinion ... the things that made me disappointed with the Mustangs are:

1) the limitation/problem of clipping when pushing an amp model with a fuzz or overdrive / distortion ... and that creates an effect in practice very similar to the " fizz " in the Mustangs V.1 who was also present in the clean sounds .
And this problem has not been taken into account to justify a firmware update to resolve or at least reduce it as much as possible .

2) I'd like to see a firmware update that adds to the function menu (models with display), a menu screen with the effects chain where you can freely change the order of each effect (pre and post gain) without having to connect with FUSE. And maybe, you can have even more of an effect of the same family at the same time ( (2 modulation and / or 2 stomp, and many other combinations.) If necessary. Logically the sum of the effects active at the same time will always be up to four effects based on the current resources available.
But even that could change the order of the effects from the amplifier, itself would be a great improvement.

3) about FUSE: i would like to see all parameters (of the effects, Advanced in the amp models but also the basic one as volume, gain, treble, mid, presence and so on) on the display of FUSE for an accurate settings.
A display font easier to read at a glance (Perhaps even a slightly bigger font if necessary)

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Abandoning Mustang because Fender already has...
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:43 pm
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LOL I feel stupid saying this but I do all my "gigs" if you can them that using just a single preset on the Mustang floor :)

I mean is not that what musicians did for the last 60 years? one amp, one cabinet, and a bunch of pedals you switch on and off... if that was enough for those rock legends probably is enough for me... AND it costs me 200 $

anyhow, I saw a demo of the Line6 Amplifi, they really do sound like crap but you can change the presets on the fly from your ipad! :)

or you can buy one of those shiny Axe-FX units that cost more than the hardware they are trying to emulate... mmmm interesting equation


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Post subject: Re: Abandoning Mustang because Fender already has...
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:55 am
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I guess the limitations of Fuse haven't bothered me so much. But then again I've found that I don't really use it all that much after I got past my first couple of months with the amp. I've worked out my system for arranging my presets for our shows every week and it doesn't really take all that long even using the menu on the amp.

My take on Fuse is it's a very flashy interface, but they chose flash over substance in designing it. Quite honestly I'd be surprised if Fender themselves actually developed the software. My guess is they outsourced it from the very beginning to a software development company. Fender is a hardware company and understand that world quite well. It would take a lot more time and money to put together an in-house development division just to develop and support the single piece of software they give away with the amp. And that's probably why you don't see much effort given over to development on the software.

The real fix for this would be for Fender to open up the software by making a software developers kit available to the public. I advocated this approach early on to Fender, but I don't know if they're really considering it or not. But if you want to see a lot of interesting variations in the software interface, that's the way to do it. It really would cost Fender nothing, but it could create an entirely new marketplace for the Mustang amp. Imagine for example, a version of Fuse that allows you to plug in software VST's in your sound chain. The creativity of independent software developers can be truly remarkable. How do you think Microsoft got to where it was with Windows??

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Post subject: Re: Abandoning Mustang because Fender already has...
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:42 am
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Hi Jedi !
jedi2b wrote:
LOL I feel stupid saying this but I do all my "gigs" if you can them that using just a single preset on the Mustang floor :)

I mean is not that what musicians did for the last 60 years? one amp, one cabinet, and a bunch of pedals you switch on and off... if that was enough for those rock legends probably is enough for me... AND it costs me 200 $

Even though i don't play live with a band , just for fun and study:
- to play "Europa" of Carlos , i stored 3 presets in a raw (controllers: Expression Pedal and 2+4 button switch pedal) :
one preset for the first part , the second for the cleaner Leslie part, and another for the final saturated and/or wah wah part as in the studio version.
For Gilmour i need to use some other presets ( various clean and saturated tones also dowloaded from FUSE community) and different tones : however i can use the same preset both for some clean part on Pink Floyd more recent songs and for example "No more lonely nights" -clean part , when he played with Mc Cartney's Wings. I like that tune.
For electro-acoustic guitar maybe another additional preset is required.

Will that being a Capricorn i tend to be a little too much perfectionist? :lol:

Quote:
anyhow, I saw a demo of the Line6 Amplifi, they really do sound like crap but you can change the presets on the fly from your ipad! :)



As far as I'm concerned, and in my experience, never more expensive Roland pedalboards (eg VG series), or other competitive products of the same quality level average of Roland:
I like the technology, but only if it makes a useful service and simplifies things, and not if it tend to becomes a kind of plaything itself.

Quote:
or you can buy one of those shiny Axe-FX units that cost more than the hardware they are trying to emulate... mmmm interesting equation


ah, here we are again, that's a product to which it would be worth migrating from Roland & Co. for those who can afford it.
it has already reached the firmware update v. 14 and usually every update (except the intermediate versions for fix) adds incredible features and further improvements.

The only thing that some customer has not been appreciated so much about Fractal Audio, from what I read, is the imminent release of the new product Axe FX II XL in practice compared to AXE FX "Mark II" (the one produced in 2011 known as AXE FX II)
mainly as has more features , some additional connections on the back panel , and more memory to accommodate up to 500 presets + 500 cabinets ( insane )
The thing that has not been appreciated (read " understood " ) by customers is the output itself for a new product that adds little to the previous one and this just to have an additional reserve memory to make backups (for example ) of your presets directly on the machine? or connect an expression pedal more and have a more standard kind of connection with their controller pedalboard?
In theory there would even be a $ 500 difference between the two machines , without the discount / price list , but in practice with the usual introductory offer becomes a difference of $ 300. You can do better.
Here in Europe they obviously cost considerably more ( customs fees etc. . , We know the story by now )

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Abandoning Mustang because Fender already has...
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:17 am
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Although there's no published SDK there doesn't seem to be anything to stop someone building a FUSE alike tool from the ground up.
Someone has done it for LINUX - it's called PLUG - I think Fender are nominally supportive of it.

I have looked into doing one myself but I'm more of a web backend developer - I did get halfway to doing a re-ordering tool, but real work took over - I might finish it, but you'd have to go to a web location of mine and then upload your presets, do the edit, then download them back .. so not ideal for ease of use, I know.

The actual presets are very easy to edit by coders - they're xml.


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Post subject: Re: Abandoning Mustang because Fender already has...
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:14 am
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markcc wrote:
Although there's no published SDK there doesn't seem to be anything to stop someone building a FUSE alike tool from the ground up.
Someone has done it for LINUX - it's called PLUG - I think Fender are nominally supportive of it.

I have looked into doing one myself but I'm more of a web backend developer - I did get halfway to doing a re-ordering tool, but real work took over - I might finish it, but you'd have to go to a web location of mine and then upload your presets, do the edit, then download them back .. so not ideal for ease of use, I know.

The actual presets are very easy to edit by coders - they're xml.


That's actually a very kewl project. Maybe if you don't take it on, someone else might. I would if I had more time, but that isn't going to happen.

It might be worth posting the various xml transactional layouts (tags. elements, attributes) for someone that might want to take this on if you've mapped them all out. At least that would give them a running start.

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Post subject: Re: Abandoning Mustang because Fender already has...
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:35 am
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dunedindragon wrote:
markcc wrote:
Although there's no published SDK there doesn't seem to be anything to stop someone building a FUSE alike tool from the ground up.
Someone has done it for LINUX - it's called PLUG - I think Fender are nominally supportive of it.

I have looked into doing one myself but I'm more of a web backend developer - I did get halfway to doing a re-ordering tool, but real work took over - I might finish it, but you'd have to go to a web location of mine and then upload your presets, do the edit, then download them back .. so not ideal for ease of use, I know.

The actual presets are very easy to edit by coders - they're xml.


That's actually a very kewl project. Maybe if you don't take it on, someone else might. I would if I had more time, but that isn't going to happen.

It might be worth posting the various xml transactional layouts (tags. elements, attributes) for someone that might want to take this on if you've mapped them all out. At least that would give them a running start.



There was a guy on this board that wrote an app called Horse Trainer that allowed you to rearrange Mustang presets but it stopped working with the Mustang v2 models. That actually was a good workaround for me and showed me how easily it could done but nothing from Fender.


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Post subject: Re: Abandoning Mustang because Fender already has...
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:48 am
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Well, I agree with the original post, that in 2014 it shouldn't be out of the question to expect drag and drop in a file sorting application. Like many others, it's not enough to make me dump my Mustang (because everything else about the Mustang is so awesome), but seriously? Drag and drop is so basic.

And like others have pointed out, that's only one of the problems with Fuse. I think Fender made a mistake using Silverlight. But now, unfortunately, the Mustang line and Silverlight are married till death do they part.


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Post subject: Re: Abandoning Mustang because Fender already has...
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:18 am
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Quote:
lacks many features that virtually all other modelers have

I'm curious which features? Certainly in their price range the various Mustang models seem to me to offer (mostly) more than the competition? I can understand your point though if a feature critical to you is one of the (few) Fender chose to omit.

Quote:
I create logical sets for my show. But I can no longer deal with the fact that it takes a half an hour to rearrange my sets

As a practical workaround, how about this: set up all your presets in one way that you want them, then 'backup' the amp. Then arrange the presets in one of the other ways you want them, and 'backup' the amp again (to a different filename). Repeat for all (or your most common) combinations of presets - I'm assuming you have a reasonable number of permutations so this shouldn't take too long. (On the other hand, if you have a bespoke set for every gig, this approach isn't going t0 work - but then is any other?).

You now have a series of backups with all the combinations you regularly use. Simply 'restore' the appropriate set back to the amp, which is a single operation in FUSE. If you do have too many to want to store them all separately, then you could store the major ones and after restoring one of these, just have a much smaller set of manual changes to make.

No, that isn't a perfect solution, and it sounds like you may already have abandoned the Mustang so may not be interested in the above. But it would be a time-saving way, with the limitations of the tools currently available, to achieve what you want.

Quote:
treated like an end-of-life product by Fender

I think that's a bit of an unfair generalisation. The people at Fender are humans like you and me and (from my experience) do care about their products and doing the best they can with those products for their customers. The amps themselves are definitely not end-of-life: they've just released new firmware. Admittedly the M-Floor seems in an odd status at the moment, and who knows about firmware for the V1 amps (we probably have to assume they're no longer being updated, sigh).

FUSE has had its criticisms from launch; just because these aren't being addressed, doesn't mean it's end-of-life. The difficulty with a commercial company is it's hard to make pre-announcements without getting shot-in-the-foot later. So for all we know, Fender could be working on a whole new FUSE; or maybe they're doing nothing. They're caught between a rock and a hard place in terms of telling us this, or not. From posts by Fender, it does appear they still have a software team working on it (whether in-house or not, we don't know).

Quote:
adds to the function menu (models with display) ... without having to connect with FUSE

I agree, they could make more features available on the amp itself without needing FUSE.

Quote:
clipping when pushing an amp model with a fuzz or overdrive / distortion ... and that creates an effect in practice very similar to the "f*zz" in the Mustangs V.1

No, this is a completely different issue, having a different effect on the waveform and thus sounding different, and being a different problem affecting a different style of playing. I wish people wouldn't confuse the two. There's been enough mis-information and misperception about the original f*zz problem without other problems being mis-labelled as the same thing. It just adds more confusion - which is why I've written f*zz rather than the real word so that people genuinely searching for the real issue don't get side-tracked by other issues.

Quote:
he would do everything possible to solicit an update to Fuse for the problem that I pointed out

I remember that topic and don't remember Fender's reply being quite so definite. I'll leave it to Fender to comment, but I wouldn't want you (or anyone else reading this) to have a false hope that there is some special priority being given to this item; that's certainly not how I read Fender's original reply. I understood the reply to suggest the relevant people have been made aware and this change is on the list for consideration along with everything else.

Quote:
is not that what musicians did for the last 60 years? one amp, one cabinet

But the point of an amp like the Mustang is to provide an easy way NOT to be restricted like that. If one wanted just one amp/cabinet and a range of separate pedals, one could do that. The Mustang offers the benefit of having everything in one box, but the downside of not offering every single feature available in a bespoke setup - but then it would have to have so many more features to cover everything that anyone might want, it would have to cost many times the price. These things will always be a trade-off.

Quote:
open up the [FUSE] software by making a software developers kit available

+1. In fact, +1000.

Quote:
Someone has done it for LINUX - it's called PLUG

I haven't seen this (yet - off to have a look next!) but if this offers different/better features than FUSE, there would be motivation for porting it back to Windows. This shouldn't be a big task.

Quote:
the Mustang line and Silverlight are married till death do they part

I disagree. Silverlight may have been a bad design choice with hindsight, but there's nothing to stop Fender taking it out and building a new UI on top of the rest of the FUSE backend.


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Post subject: Re: Abandoning Mustang because Fender already has...
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:20 am
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Fender introduced computer processing to amplifiers 13 years ago and the whole Mustang line was very well thought out and designed. To think they outsource their programmers and the like is conceivable but probably not the case.

Nothing is purrfect......er..... except this cup of coffee I am sipping right now with frothy milk and just a tad of grated 85% cacao dark chocolate. :shock:

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Post subject: Re: Abandoning Mustang because Fender already has...
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:47 am
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Most hardware vendors (as Fender) outsource software development to generic software development companies in India. It is simply more cost effective. As a side-effect, those companies charge by the hour, so doing software improvements have a cost for the hardware vendor, this brings to the fact that unless there's a major bug in the software, nothing will be done, or in the best of cases, they will try to package all improvements on a yearly update to minimize financial impact.

But seriously, unless you have a Mustang 1/2 (which are more computer dependent for deep editing) I do not see the need for ever connecting the Mustang Floor/3/4/5 to the computer other than to do firmware upgrades, which happens once in a blue moon if it happens at all.


Last edited by jedi2b on Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Abandoning Mustang because Fender already has...
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:14 am
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Why not just use it as your favorite clean amp with pedals? Since the tone and responsiveness is spot on, you don't need 100 presets.

Or if you want to use the internal effects, is it really that hard to have the presents you want and quickly assign to the 3 buttons?

I haven't used fuse in 3 years.

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