It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:20 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
Post subject: Fender FUSE models and different Mustang versions
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:55 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:48 am
Posts: 40
If software amp modeling is supposedly so dependent on FRFR monitors for accurate reproduction of the model's sound, how is it that the same Fender FUSE models can be used equally well in any of the Fender Mustang versions...from the tiny 1x8" Mustang I to the gigantic 4x12" cabinet of the Mustang V? Not to mention the differences in speaker types and power amps across the different versions.

I assume that Fender does not change the models or presets across all the Mustang types, yet they sound good regardless.

So my conclusion is that all of this hoohah (that's right, hoohah :P ) about needing FRFR monitors for listening to software amp modeling is a bunch of baloney (or should that be "hooey"?)


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: Fender FUSE models and different Mustang versions
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:21 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:37 am
Posts: 1315
Location: England
Quote:
software amp modeling is supposedly so dependent on FRFR monitors

I'm not sure I've read that anywhere. But here's a different take on it:

If the goal is re-create the sound (as perceived by the human ear, rather than a waveform inside the amp somewhere) of some 'real' amp, then the amp modelling needs to be cogniscent of the power-amp and speakers that the modelling sound is being sent to. This is so that the amp modelling can adjust its output to allow for the characteristics of the speaker, etc, as part of re-creating the overall sound.

If that power-amp and speaker(s) are fruly hi-fi FRFR, then it makes the amp modelling easier: it doesn't have to do any adjustment to allow for the speaker characteristics. But that doesn't mean one HAS to use FRFR.

For example, the Mustang Floor has different output settings, precisely so you can tell it what you're sending its sound into, and it adjusts itself to suit.

The interesting question then becomes: does the firmware inside the Mustang amps 'know' which Mustang model it is, and does it do any adjustment to allow for the different power amps and speakers in the amps? I would agree with the OP that, for genuine modelling, the output of the DSP needs to be different for a Mustang 1 (low power, one small speaker) compared to a Mustang 4 (high power, two big speakers).

The topic has come up occasionally before on this forum and there's no clear answer - certainly no definitive statement I've seen from Fender either here or in any of the product documentation or support articles. In particular, there has been debate about whether the cab-emulation parts of the DSP are 'tuned' differently inside the firmware for the various real speakers in the different amp models.

As with most questions where technology meets art/music: it's sometimes fun and interesting to delve into all the technical subtleties. It's also a lot more fun and satisfaction just to get on and play the music . Adjust the amp until it sounds good to you and don't worry too much about whether it sounds identical to some other amp. Unless you're doing a side-by-side comparison in controlled conditions* as an academic exercise, the differences are likely to be pretty small and irrelevant anyway.

For me, the convenience (and money-saving!) of having one amp that, at the turn of a knob, can sound almost-like-a-VOX or almost-like-a-65-deluxe etc, outweigh any downsides of the "almost-like-a..." aspect.

*NB I did do this with a Mustang 3 and a VOX AC15. Yes they don't sound identical, but in just a couple of minutes I could get the Mustang 3 pretty close, and in fact I'd say neither sounded better than the other, they were just slightly different.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender FUSE models and different Mustang versions
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:06 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:38 pm
Posts: 1744
I agree with Scott.

Whether or not the Amp sims are spot on is of no bother. Does the 65 Twin sound exactly like a 65 Twin? I don't care, but it sure is characteristic enough of one. Super clean and lots of headroom.

I think good evidence of this can be found in Shane's (intheblues) Blind test comparisons against real amps. His tremolux sure fooled a lot of folks and the preset he used was the 57 Champ with a Princeton cab.

I'd be interested in seeing how the same preset sounds across the different Mustang models. I'm sure it does sound a bit different on my mustang II then the Mustang III but I don't really care. Once I crank the master volume above 4, it sounds about as natural and "tooby" as i could ever want.

_________________
YMMV

Chont's Mustang Presets


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender FUSE models and different Mustang versions
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:32 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:15 am
Posts: 300
I read that the output IS tailored for each device - it has to be.
Headphones are the same output on any device..


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender FUSE models and different Mustang versions
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:45 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:38 pm
Posts: 1744
I'm growing very loathsome of the headphone out after getting a few chances to goose the crap out of the level when no one is around. :lol:

_________________
YMMV

Chont's Mustang Presets


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender FUSE models and different Mustang versions
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:01 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:48 am
Posts: 40
Just to clarify, I think the Mustang sounds great. And I agree that it ultimately just matters if you like what you hear.

I'm only posting this because I started out as an Amplitube on PC user. I went searching for ways to amplify my sound away from my computer speakers. That led me to the FRFR wormhole. Search for "amp modeling FRFR" and you will see all sorts of discussions about why guitar cabinets won't work for modeling because they color the sound too much and you really need to use FRFR speakers.

All I'm saying is that maybe they are technically and theoretically correct, but I've come to the conclusion that in practice it's all close enough (as long as the amp tone is clean, like the Mustang through the FX Return).

Here's another scenario. My understanding is that when you create your tone in FUSE with the Mustang hooked up to your computer, you are actually hearing the sound through your computer speakers, not the amp. If the amp's speaker and cabinet "coloration" were really such a big problem, then the tone you just created would sound awful, or at least very different, once you start playing it through the amp itself. But in practice, I'm assuming that's just not the case.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender FUSE models and different Mustang versions
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:16 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:38 pm
Posts: 1744
Fuse is just a GUI and not generating any sound whatsoever. When I ‘Fuse’ with my amp, I have my laptop speakers turned off and am listening to the amp.

What you might be referring to is the difference in voicing between what the speaker puts out versus headphone out and/or the USB out. If you are primarily using the amp with the outputs, then sure you should create your presets accordingly. You just can’t expect both to sound the same.

In my opinion, you could put whatever speaker you wish. There are no rules. If it sounds good to you that’s all that matters. The cabinets are just EQ Curves designed around the stock speakers frequency response so if one did throw a new speaker in the box, they’d just have to be willing to re-tweak and expect different results with cab selection.

That’s at least my perspective, I’m sure there are others more knowledgeable or with differing opinions

_________________
YMMV

Chont's Mustang Presets


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender FUSE models and different Mustang versions
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:52 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:48 am
Posts: 40
captainc wrote:
Fuse is just a GUI and not generating any sound whatsoever. When I ‘Fuse’ with my amp, I have my laptop speakers turned off and am listening to the amp.


Oh really? That's great! I thought I had read somewhere that when you had the amp hooked up by USB to FUSE that you could only get sound out of the computer speakers. I love the idea of leaving a laptop on top of the Mustang and having full GUI control of everything.

As far as the other stuff I'm talking about...I guess my point is I'm just happy to find out that for my purposes I don't need $1200 studio monitors to make things sound good as some modeling forums would lead you to believe.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Fender FUSE models and different Mustang versions
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:38 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:38 pm
Posts: 1744
thoman23 wrote:
As far as the other stuff I'm talking about...I guess my point is I'm just happy to find out that for my purposes I don't need $1200 studio monitors to make things sound good as some modeling forums would lead you to believe.


Hogwash. Having good monitors is sure key but $1200. NOPE!

I used to work in a fairly large recording studio (as an assistant engineer) before going down the Film and Television path and you know what ... on about EVERY mix I assisted on the Engineer had me go get the boom box and plop it up on the SSL to check the mix. You make it sound good out of a consumer system, it will sound amazing on good monitors.

_________________
YMMV

Chont's Mustang Presets


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: