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Post subject: Re: Tube amp needed? I don't think so!
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:11 am
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muzak wrote:
In my opinion, if you don't hear and feel the difference between a Mustang modeling and its real life tube amp counter part you have something wrong with your ears! Or you don't know what to listen to.


Not everyone hears the same things. Not everyone cares. Not everyone is a gear fiend. These things are not a measure of someone's worth as a player.

Of course there will be differences between the amp and the sim. But it's close enough for a lot of people not to care. A damn good sim of Fenders finest amps for a few 100, versus about $10k (in my part of the world) for the real things? No brainer.

muzak wrote:
That's why modelers cost hundreds and tube amps thousands. And that's why IMHO the majority of current top guitar players use tube amps.


The main difference in cost is materials and labour. Tubes can cost more to make, they're sure as hell more expensive to fix. Although - it's 60+ year old technology. Why on earth should they still cost thousands? Perceived Mojo. Brand premiums, Profit margins.

I like some tube amps, others not. It's not really SS or tube being better, but when a nice tube is going to set me back a min $1500+ in my part of the world, it needs to be the right one. So I'm waiting til I find it and can play it well. Til then a Pathfinder and Mustang do a very good job.

As for top players, most of them are getting stuff for free, and other people are lugging it for them.


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Post subject: Re: Tube amp needed? I don't think so!
Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:09 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
...aaaaand there it is again. The arrogant presumption that since some of us choose to use a modeling amp, we must be a bunch of know-nothing kids who never saw a tube amp before. The truth is lots of us have owned and played tube amps. I have a 69 Super Reverb Amp sitting behind me right now. We are smart and open-minded enough to know there are up sides and down sides to both. Some of us choose to own both for that reason. Why don't you save the history lesson and go out and educate yourself about what's available now, not the amp you tried (with a pouty "OK, I'll try it but I'm not gonna like it" face) 3 years ago.

Yes, we like different things, and variety is nice.

Personally I prefer non-modeling SS amps for practice, and tube amps for performance/recording.
The Mustang is not for me, although I own one. But if others like theirs, who am I to complain? It's all good, as long as you like your amp(s). And if you don't, well. A.A.S. will cure that.


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Post subject: Re: Tube amp needed? I don't think so!
Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:17 pm
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hey now, don't take me out of context :D

strings10927 wrote:
muzak wrote:
There are good and bad sounding tube amps, even with same names and models. When you play a good one, you'll realize how these digital modelers do not come even close to what they try to imitate

...aaaaand there it is again. The arrogant presumption that since some of us choose to use a modeling amp, we must be a bunch of know-nothing kids who never saw a tube amp before. The truth is lots of us have owned and played tube amps. I have a 69 Super Reverb Amp sitting behind me right now. We are smart and open-minded enough to know there are up sides and down sides to both. Some of us choose to own both for that reason. Why don't you save the history lesson and go out and educate yourself about what's available now, not the amp you tried (with a pouty "OK, I'll try it but I'm not gonna like it" face) 3 years ago.

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Post subject: Re: Tube amp needed? I don't think so!
Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:39 pm
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My original post was basically how the M3 can hold up these days and with the new technologies. Look at Line 6, They are really now putting out junk. The Mustangs hold their own. And if yo are a bedroom player (that I am now) they are the perfect toy/amp to use. I do GAS for a tube amp. the catalogs are looked at daily,, But I seem to lose the GAS, when I hear the Gretsch through the M3. I don't really know why, It just rocks!

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Post subject: Re: Tube amp needed? I don't think so!
Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:06 pm
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Ok, question;

What is "GAS"? :oops:

*EDIT*
NVM, google foo'd it

Guitar Acquisition Syndrome

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Post subject: Re: Tube amp needed? I don't think so!
Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:32 pm
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GAS = Gear Acquisition Syndrome! :D

On YouTube, there is a guy using the moniker "Intheblues" who has done several double-blind tests between Mustang IIIs and IVs and the actual tube amps they are cloning. In the tests, they do not tell which amp is which; instead, they wait for at least 1000 votes then post a follow-up video.

They spend between 15-20 minutes on the Mustang trying to dial in as close of a sound as possible to the tube amp. In a few of their tests, the vote does come out in favor of the tube amp... but it is never clearly favored. In others, the tube amp loses... the majority thinks the Mustang tone is the tube amp over the real thing.

Ina double-blind test between an MIII ($300) and a Eric Clapton signature Tremolux ($1200) the majority thought the MIII was the real tube amp!

Yes, the Mustang line is a very serious amp modeling line... Line 6 stuck tubes in its Spiders and they still don't compare!

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Post subject: Re: Tube amp needed? I don't think so!
Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:44 pm
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+1 on intheblues

That Tremolux preset he has is delicious. I have that as is and about 4 other presets built around it on my MII and love them

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Post subject: Re: Tube amp needed? I don't think so!
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:20 am
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Let's face it, the tube versus modeling argument is not likely to go away. Not due to the actual technical merits, but more based on perceived prestige. I liken it to the Harley versus non-Harley argument. Why would anyone insist on spending considerably more money on 50 year old technology that, by technical specification, is LESS capable than a competitor using modern technology? The simple answer is ego.

As pointed out by other posters, the YouTube double-blind tests posted by "In The Blues" clearly indicates there is no statistically meaningful difference that indicates people can consistently hear the difference between tube and modeled amps. And if musicians can't do it consistently, it's a sure-fire bet your audience can't!! And a hint to all those involved, it's your audience you need to appease...not yourself if you're a musician.

I have to say one of the most amusing artifacts in this ongoing war is how many guitar players I've come across with very rudimentary skills insisting on using a tube amp. Maybe they should focus more on developing their musical ears and skills and less time trying to be a rock star with all the "right" equipment?

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Post subject: Re: Tube amp needed? I don't think so!
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:27 am
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My 2cents :D

I love my tube amp, it just sounds powerful and deliberate. It is better sounding to my ears than my Line6 SpiderValve or my Roland Cube30 or my Marshall ValveState ever did.

However every day at work during lunch I practice through my PC on Guitar Rig 5 using headphones. I only use one setup preset on it that I built and tweaked but man-o-man, if I ever find an amp that sounds like that preset, I would snatch it up.

The point to the post is that a DSP SS amp has definitely got the ability to win me over in todays day and age.

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Post subject: Re: Tube amp needed? I don't think so!
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:36 am
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dunedindragon wrote:
And a hint to all those involved, it's your audience you need to appease...not yourself if you're a musician.


As much as you are correct to some degree, you actually do need to appease yourself as a musician. Your music is generally an extension of you and what your feeling, even whilst playing covers. Your gear will undoubtedly have an effect on your moods and feelings. If your gear is sounding good to you then it will probably inspire more confidence and transpire in your playing, which is what your audience hears.

So no matter what gear you have, if it feels and sounds good to you then its all good.

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Post subject: Re: Tube amp needed? I don't think so!
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:31 am
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I totally agree. The other day I dialed a Marshall Lead sound on my mustang 3 and it took me 3 hours to finally put my guitar to rest... and I did not have to pay the ridiculous amount of money a Marshall amp is sold for.

I want to thank the gang that can not live without a tube amp and are willing to pay 1,2 or 3k$ for an amp. You guys created the marketing niche for cheap but powerful amps like the mustangs for the rest of us!

then again, this is music interpretation we are talking about here, so things are subjective enough that this kind of discrepancy exist. Making a parallel, I would not be surprised if there are still best seller writers around that claim that they need to use an old typewriter to write and probably provide with a number of irrefutable claims on why that is the case.


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Post subject: Re: Tube amp needed? I don't think so!
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:28 am
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I've never picked a side in this argument and having always had SS amps.

However, I hear from time to time someone playing on a Gib/Epi LP and it has this...
"ring" to it that I cannot ever duplicate. I hear it in Slash's solo and I don't know if it's the amps or the guitar. I heard it just yesterday while listening to something and thought of this thread and thought to myself... oO(That's GOT to be a tube amp)....

This is a topic that I'd love to dive more into but having the time nor funds for such an endeavor. I will, however, be tagging along on the thread and researching this too.

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Post subject: Re: Tube amp needed? I don't think so!
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:37 am
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I think, what you call "ring" is what I call "metallic sound" :)
If we are talking about the same thing, I think is totally unrelated to the amp itself and has more to do with the guitar.
Try the following, simply pick any fender strat UNPLUGED and play some chords. Now pickup even the cheapest epiphone guitar and repeat those chords also unpluged, you will immediately hear the "metallic sound" in the bottom (maybe your "ring" sound too).

I THINK it is related to the mahogany(ish) body and the extra sustain of the Les Paul guitar models, and is the reason why my next guitar is going to be an Epi Les Paul :)


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Post subject: Re: Tube amp needed? I don't think so!
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:46 am
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If it sounds good it is good – Duke Ellington

That about sums it up for me. I had eventually planned on upgrading to a real deluxe or Princeton but I think I’m just getting a Mustang III eventually or whatever is out when I’m ready to do the deed. Love my mustang and love the flexibility. If you like tube amps great, if you like modeling amps great.

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Post subject: Re: Tube amp needed? I don't think so!
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:12 am
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Dunedindragon:

I totally can relate to your Harley vs all other bikes reference... I have brought it up numerous times in this forum on tube amp v SS amp and MIA v MIM guitars threads but no one bites. I thought more musicians rode bikes as well but I guess its just us!

I can't afford a Harley. I could afford it, but only by sacrificing money that should go toward my family and not my toybox. I yearn for a Harley though... and that frustrates me because the Vulcan Nomad that I do ride has professional critical reviews all over the net stating it is superior to its rival, the Harley Road King, in every way (the Yamaha Royal Star is also superior to the Road King in every way!) Yet the Road King costs almost twice as much and a large number of bikers sneer at non-Harley riders at every rally or biking event!

Sometimes I feel this way when I read threads where the tube amp owners completely trash anyone who rocks a SS amp! Would I LOVE to own a Eric Clapton Tremolux? You bet I would! Would I give up my Mustang for it? Probably not because the Mustang is so much more versatile. I will give up my Mustang for the Tremolux, and a Twin Reverb, and a Marshall stack on and on (plus all the analog pedals and stomps to go with them!)

WulfGangii:

I agree with Jedi2b, it's largely Slash's guitar.. which is a custom LP with even more sustain than a regular LP. Alas, even the Epiphone Slash LP is going for over $1000 and the Gibson Slash around $3000 with the reliced exact clone even higher. Plus Slash has a custom Marhall full-stack worth in the tens of thousands and pro-rig cabinet effects including an Fractal Axe FX modeler. However, in concert, Slash is likely playing through that pro rig direct to venue PA and leaving his Marshall stack at the studio. Why? Due to the convenience and quality of modern digital modeling technology!

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