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Post subject: Mustang 3 V2 Possible Problem?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:15 pm
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I bought a strat last year and I have been using a Roland Micro Cube that I had already but, whilst the cube is a great little practice amp I wanted something that would compliment my strat and have more functionality and control so my wife bought me the Mustang 3 V2 for Christmas.
I have been trying out all the presets and notice some have a loud background hiss, some a slight hiss and others no background noise at all I am assuming this is caused by some of the effects and settings used in the presets but, never having had a modelling amp before I just wanted to verify with other owners of the same model whether or not I had a fault in mine.
I'm getting quite loud hissing / white noise with effect numbers 26:35:42:63 and softer with 44:48:49:59 these are just a sample selection but, there are others. The clean presets and quite a few other presets have no background noise.
Also, I am wondering which is the best way to set up this type of amp? I usually set up my amp with everything on the guitar set at 50% so that I can make fine volume and tone adjustments with the guitar but, I've not long started playing again after a break of 45 years and things have changed a lot since then.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang 3 V2 Possible Problem?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:28 pm
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See my thread about this here:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=88029


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Post subject: Re: Mustang 3 V2 Possible Problem?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:35 am
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Also see these threads (relevant extracts from each posted inline below too):

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=86136

Some of the amp models on the Mustang deliberately have hiss - because that's what the original analogue amp being modelled did! Noise reduction in the 60s wasn't really a priority, so a lot of the circuitry inherently introduced unwanted effects such as hiss.

So to an extent, some hiss is to be expected - it's one aspect of high-quality, authentic modelling of vintage amps that I agree is perhaps a bit frustrating! Personally I'd have preferred the models to mimic the desirable tone qualities of the original amps, but been a bit more 'modern' in terms of suppressing the unwanted artifacts!

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=73546

One of the ironies of an accurate modelling amp is that it attempts to reproduce the sound of the amp being modelled, warts and all. So yes, some of the presets, amp models and effects do include noise, sometimes quite a lot. (Personally I think this is undesirable. The noise was never meant to be there in the original amp; it was an unavoidable side-effect of the limitations of amplifier technology in years gone by. It would be nice if modelling amps had two modes: "authentic with noise" and "noise suppressed.") I suspect the distortion effect combined with the inherent noise in the model is too much for what you want to achieve. All I can suggest is that you play with all the settings to find a mix that gives you the tone you want with minimal noise.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang 3 V2 Possible Problem?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:11 pm
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Thanks guys, it was as you said just the set ups causing the white noise because I got exactly the same sound over the headphones plus, I was too close to the amp I was adjusting the preset knob and sitting by it so it sounded much louder to me than if I'm 8' away.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang 3 V2 Possible Problem?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:19 pm
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scott-uk wrote:
Also see these threads (relevant extracts from each posted inline below too):

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=86136

Some of the amp models on the Mustang deliberately have hiss - because that's what the original analogue amp being modelled did! Noise reduction in the 60s wasn't really a priority, so a lot of the circuitry inherently introduced unwanted effects such as hiss.

So to an extent, some hiss is to be expected - it's one aspect of high-quality, authentic modelling of vintage amps that I agree is perhaps a bit frustrating! Personally I'd have preferred the models to mimic the desirable tone qualities of the original amps, but been a bit more 'modern' in terms of suppressing the unwanted artifacts!

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=73546


One of the ironies of an accurate modelling amp is that it attempts to reproduce the sound of the amp being modelled, warts and all. So yes, some of the presets, amp models and effects do include noise, sometimes quite a lot. (Personally I think this is undesirable. The noise was never meant to be there in the original amp; it was an unavoidable side-effect of the limitations of amplifier technology in years gone by. It would be nice if modelling amps had two modes: "authentic with noise" and "noise suppressed.") I suspect the distortion effect combined with the inherent noise in the model is too much for what you want to achieve. All I can suggest is that you play with all the settings to find a mix that gives you the tone you want with minimal noise.

Yes, some amp models have noticeable noise and or hiss which comes with the original amp being modeled and to your other point I have many piano samples that even allow me to turn off and on the damper and sustain pedal noise so it is conceivable that Fender could do this with the Mustangs.

I would think with the digital technology that we now have it would be simple to analyze the frequency and characteristic of the unwanted noise and or hiss and cut it out digitally. I have done this many times in my studio cleaning up wave files.

On the other hand and not to sound like a defense lawyer, digital is pretty sterile and maybe having that noise in there makes it sound better in some ways.

I have heard of some well known producers that have added noise to their artist's hit records in the digital domain but back when we had classic rock, tape and vinyl this was avoided at all cost. Maybe that is one of the reasons why the music of that era was so dang good and today's music is ...is... ...is... well........never mind.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang 3 V2 Possible Problem?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:40 pm
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scott-uk wrote:
It would be nice if modelling amps had two modes: "authentic with noise" and "noise suppressed.")


If the next firmware for the Mustang introduced this one feature and no other, I would be happy.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang 3 V2 Possible Problem?
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:53 am
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adiabatic wrote:
scott-uk wrote:
It would be nice if modelling amps had two modes: "authentic with noise" and "noise suppressed.")


If the next firmware for the Mustang introduced this one feature and no other, I would be happy.


You can eliminate hum for any model by adjusting the noise gate.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang 3 V2 Possible Problem?
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:15 am
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HIO wrote:

Some of the amp models on the Mustang deliberately have hiss - because that's what the original analogue amp being modelled did! Noise reduction in the 60s wasn't really a priority, so a lot of the circuitry inherently introduced unwanted effects such as hiss.



So first Fender spent countless research dollars to figure out how to intentionally add annoying hiss where none previously existed, and then spent more money to put in a noise gate so you could try to get rid of it? If you really believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang 3 V2 Possible Problem?
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:33 am
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cormorant wrote:
HIO wrote:

Some of the amp models on the Mustang deliberately have hiss - because that's what the original analogue amp being modelled did! Noise reduction in the 60s wasn't really a priority, so a lot of the circuitry inherently introduced unwanted effects such as hiss.



So first Fender spent countless research dollars to figure out how to intentionally add annoying hiss where none previously existed, and then spent more moneeey to put in a noise gate so you could try to get rid of it? If you really believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in.


Glad they did not stop after adding the hiss.

Did you ever see the Looney Tunes about the house of the future? Despite being warned never to press the red button, Porkie does press the red button which sends the home into the clouds. Daffy choppers up to him to say, "for a small fee I can install this blue button to get you back down."

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Post subject: Re: Mustang 3 V2 Possible Problem?
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:49 am
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cormorant wrote:
HIO wrote:

Some of the amp models on the Mustang deliberately have hiss - because that's what the original analogue amp being modelled did! Noise reduction in the 60s wasn't really a priority, so a lot of the circuitry inherently introduced unwanted effects such as hiss.



So first Fender spent countless research dollars to figure out how to intentionally add annoying hiss where none previously existed, and then spent more money to put in a noise gate so you could try to get rid of it? If you really believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in.


As someone who started playing when tube amps were the only amps made, I've plugged into a lot of different amps and I've seen a lot of amps come and go, and there are hundreds and hundreds (even today) that I haven't tried. One of my major suspicions is that many people take for granted that the sound of an amp that they hear on a recording (or even in concert) is actually the sound of the amp. For at least the last 50 years, sound engineers have been adjusting and removing unpleasant artifacts and tailoring tonalities to taste---it's what they're paid to do, and we are inured by their accomplishments. When we don't have the benefit of roadies and sound crew, we experience "real" amps regularly on gigs, solving all sorts of acoustic and electrical issues to remove actual and perceived unpleasantries from our amplified sound and to get the amp to "feel" right. Even at that point, another player can use your amp and completely startle you, for better or worse, with the sound that he/she gets out of the amp.

In general, I would venture that modern amps have less noise than ever, and, at this point in time, it would probably have been relatively easy for the Fender team to remove hiss from certain models---but that was part of the way that model's eq, etc., was set up, and what gave its tone controls their characteristic response. Having worked with a number of modelers over the years, I can safely say that the high-gain models hiss. It's probably one of the reasons that noise gates have been regular features in modelers for over a decade or more. Moving all the way up to a Kemper or the actual amp itself will not necessarily eliminate the hiss, if that's what the amp does. You don't expect a Shelby to idle like a Fiesta.

Note also that a lot of factory patches for high gain amps usually are over-the-top when it comes to the gain settings. In my live-gig experience, especially for optimum response, sound and projection of high gain models, the input gain can be lowered and the output/master gain adjusted as needed. This also has a tendency to reduce noise artifacts.

Since I'm not a fan of noise gates in general, I really do like the proposed "no hiss" option. After all, I don't recall having had a model hum---and Lord knows, enough "real" amps do that.

After about eight months of regular gigging with my M3v2, I'm impressed. So far, amazing projection and performance and noise/hum rejection from the power section is as good as I've heard at any price. What a freakin' bargain.

Paj
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Post subject: Re: Mustang 3 V2 Possible Problem?
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:09 pm
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cormorant wrote:
HIO wrote:

Some of the amp models on the Mustang deliberately have hiss - because that's what the original analogue amp being modelled did! Noise reduction in the 60s wasn't really a priority, so a lot of the circuitry inherently introduced unwanted effects such as hiss.



So first Fender spent countless research dollars to figure out how to intentionally add annoying hiss where none previously existed, and then spent more money to put in a noise gate so you could try to get rid of it? If you really believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in.


Cormorant, please do not quote me when it is something I did not write. Secondly, your reply to scott-uk's quote is quite a bit of a stretch on several levels so I would kindly suggest you keep your bridge.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang 3 V2 Possible Problem?
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:23 pm
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Archtop Bill wrote:
You can eliminate hum for any model by adjusting the noise gate.


Yeah, that's not an acceptable option for me. Sure, I can eliminate the noise from between the notes with the gate but when I play a note and the signal level crosses the gate value I hear the hiss overlaid on the note.

It's bad when playing normally, it's terrible when practising with headphones. If you have a noise gate setting (either on amp or in FUSE) that you think is good, please share.

I'm not sure I'm 100% buying into the discussion that this is simply accurate modelling but either way, we've got a DSP amp here and any audio output from full hiss to no hiss to making every note sound like a train horn is possible.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang 3 V2 Possible Problem?
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:52 pm
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adiabatic wrote:
Archtop Bill wrote:
You can eliminate hum for any model by adjusting the noise gate.


Yeah, that's not an acceptable option for me. Sure, I can eliminate the noise from between the notes with the gate but when I play a note and the signal level crosses the gate value I hear the hiss overlaid on the note.

It's bad when playing normally, it's terrible when practising with headphones. If you have a noise gate setting (either on amp or in FUSE) that you think is good, please share.

I'm not sure I'm 100% buying into the discussion that this is simply accurate modelling but either way, we've got a DSP amp here and any audio output from full hiss to no hiss to making every note sound like a train horn is possible.


I do not necessarily buy the idea of "hiss or hum added to enhance the listener's realistic experience" because the hissiest or hummiest amp models I just do not have enough experience or memory of the real thing. What does present itself is that a large number of the models are much quieter than my '90's Blues Deluxe. As memory serves me, some presets are quieter than my Champ 12.

The noise gate is a solution I use with those annoying hissy presets. Perhaps the noise is there when notes are played, but my ears do not pick it up while playing or playback from my DAW. My ears are not what they used to be so I am sure those with sensitive hearing my find the noise gate an unacceptable solution.

So. Back to the hiss added just for fun claim, yeah I would like to hear an unfun hiss-less model rather than setting the noise gate.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang 3 V2 Possible Problem?
Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:53 pm
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I would be shocked to hear that they intentionally added noise to a digital code.
It is just a natural by product of heightened gain settings, whether it be analogue or digitally produced.
I am with the poster above... IF it is added... gimme one without!! 8)


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Post subject: Re: Mustang 3 V2 Possible Problem?
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:15 pm
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mojo_plasma wrote:
I would be shocked to hear that they intentionally added noise to a digital code.
It is just a natural by product of heightened gain settings, whether it be analogue or digitally produced.
I am with the poster above... IF it is added... gimme one without!! 8)


Hi,
Just to say...
even though is not about an amp model but as i said some months ago, at Native Instruments , was introduced an hiss feature at least in one of their emulation of vintage/analog effects: in the stand alone software Guitar Rig 5 there is the Tape Echo, emulation of a Roland tape delay very versatile, and in the advanced parameters you can find the knob "Noise".. it manage the amount of hiss added (at minimum no noise is added) .. and i have to say that a right amount, a soft and warm hiss, does not hurt instead in its simplicity makes the tape echo simulation more vintage and authentic.


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