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Post subject: Mustang Floor (or other multieffects unit) + tube amp
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:26 am
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Sooo after 2 and a half years of being a happy M IV owner, I've decided it's time to get my gear to the next level (ahh the friggin GAS). I am almost settled to buy a Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue 40W tube amp (3 years old, looks as good as new, 250€ cheaper than from the store and I might even lower the price for another 50€ or so) and am wondering if anyone used that particular amp in conjunction with a Mustang Floor and what are their thoughts about sound and feel?

A guy who's got a Marshall tube amp (can't remember which model, bought it for around 1900 €) told me, that the salesman said he mustn't connect a tube amp with a digital multieffects unit (he's got a Zoom multieffects and doesn't use it due to what the salesman said). He said anything one hooks up to a tube amp ought to be analog. I find that odd, but still - haven't owned a tube amp before and want to be on the safe side. Is it safe for me to hook up Mustang Floor to a tube amp or, more specifically, Blues Deluxe Reissue, or should I rather invest that money into pedals?

The amp has a FX loop so I'm guessing that would be where the Floor would be most effective, if placed? Or do you think it's better if I place it between the guitar and the amp?

All thoughts are much appreciated :)

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Last edited by Neimenljivi on Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang Floor + tube amp
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:15 pm
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Do want the tube amp "sculpt" your overall sound to audience? Or as a monitor?

In my case I want the PA to get the MF's pure signal.

I use my MF with a Fender-Blues Jr (tube amp). Using the BJr as a monitor.

The amp is set to a "clean" setting.

MF > XLR Out > PA
MF > Unbalanced > Blues Jr

I mostly use the British 60s, 70s, SuperSonic, Bassman & Twin models (all tuned by me) with excellent results.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang Floor + tube amp
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:28 pm
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To further sculpt my sound, yeah :) I want the audience to hear what I am hearing (except, of course, the minor changes made by the sound engineer on the PA).

So based on the pics from the net if I place the MF between guitar and amp, it's guitar -> input of MF -> then unbalanced out (left or right - what's the difference?) into amp input
and if I place the MF in amp loop, it's FX send -> input of MF -> unbalanced out -> FX return ?

As I said, I am new to these things so I appreciate all the help :P

I see there's also a power supply jack.. Is the power supply given with the MF, or do you have to buy it separately? If the latter - how much does it cost approx?

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Post subject: Re: Mustang Floor + tube amp
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:27 pm
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Try either way & see what you like.

Tone is a personal thing. I've been playing over 30+ yrs & have learned that what you hear & what the audience hears are 2 different things. Too many possible variables. I want to get close though. So for the PA I use pure MF only.

I used a PA system in a 1500 seat theater to "tune" my MF.

My MF's Volume is set to 11-12oclock. Live for my monitors/amps I do minor adjustments to (tone/volume) as needed.

In the Forum do a search regarding the MF adapter. Along with the Adapter specs make sure Barrel Connector is 5.5mm outside & 2.5mm inside. Cost approx $10-$40.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang Floor + tube amp
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:43 pm
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Thanks, so apparently the adapter is added, just not a very high quality one. Well once I get my amp, I'll then see when I test out the floor and pedals which option is better to buy. Then I should probably be set for at least 2 or 3 years, until the GAS kicks in again :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang Floor + tube amp
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:55 pm
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I have done the opposite, Neimenljivi... I switched from a Mustang Floor run through a Peavey Delta Blues tube amp to a Mustang V V2 head and 4x12 cab. I was set to get the Mustang IV V2 but had the opportunity to get the Mustang V V2 half-stack for exactly $20 more so I jumped!

However you may feel about tubes vs solid state, I can honestly say that the sound from my Mustang V half-stack is as good or better than the sound of my former Mustang Floor run through the effects loop of the Peavey Delta Blues (which is a fantastic blues tube amp in its own right and you can google reviews of it comparing to the Blues Deluxe and Hot Rod Deluxe.)... definitely better sound as far as stereo sound and effects are concerned with the Mustang V because the Delta Blues was only capable of mono (as is the BDRI.)

You will be losing the twin stereo Celestion 12 speakers in your Mustang IV for a single mono speaker in the BDRI.

Your Mustang IV pushes 150 watts solid state vs the 40 watts tube that the BDRI pushes. Your Mustang IV has the same tone regardless of what volume you play at. Remember that if you gig or play loud, the BDRI will reach tube saturation and distort which will muddy the DSP intended distortion levels of the modeled amps and effects. End result is that your modeled amps and effects will not sound like what they were intended to and may/probably will sound bad. You will have to tweak the Floor's effects to compensate for the BDRI's tube saturation at high volume; so you will have to use separately created patches for low volume play and high volume play if you want similar tone.

Speaking of which, if you sometimes run the Floor directly to PA or recording, your resulting sound will sound nothing like it does played through the BDRI because the BDRI will color the tone a little at low volume and a lot at high volume.

Tube amps are heavy, expensive and require maintenance, replacement and biasing of the tubes.

While you can certainly run a Floor through a tube amp; I feel it sort of defeats the purpose of Fender's exceptional DSP in the Mustangs unless you run it through a tube amp such as the Tech 21 Power Engine or an Atomic Reactor which were especially made for modelers.

Finally, in trading a Mustang IV for a Floor, you are not getting the new amp and effect models of the Mustang V2s even though the Floor is based on the new V2 technology... which is a bummer. I would be more inclined to trade a Mustang IV for, well, a Mustang IV V2! Or keep the Mustang IV, forget about the Floor, and just get the BDRI as a second amp.

On the plus side, a BDRI is a fantastic sounding amp to play directly through without the Floor. You could just use the Floor's stomps and effects without using its amp models through the BDRI. But then you could just get a digital effects processor that does not have amp models like the Line 6 M series of stompbox modelers. Or, if you have gravitated towards the "tube snob" that comes out in all of us from time to time; you could enjoy collecting an arsenal of analog pedals and effects to go with your analog BDRI.

But I for one honestly believe that amp modeling is beginning to rival real tube sound... especially with these Fender Mustangs! I believe there was a recent blind test where half the testees or more couldn't pick the real tube amp from the Mustang that was modeling it.

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Jackson USA Phil Collen PC-1
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Post subject: Re: Mustang Floor + tube amp
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:10 pm
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Thanks Tiger J for your input :)
Well I must say I've been satisfied with my M4, that's for sure. Don't really see the need for a v2 model as mine doesn't have fizz and also don't need all those extra effects. Tbh I'd love for Fender to produce a Floor v2 model so I the price on a v1 would drop, and that's pretty much the only reason I'd want them to produce a v2 :lol:

The thing is - everybody's been telling me - "get a tube amp, you'll hear the difference once you test it out, the response and everything.. You won't go back from that". I've been saying - well, I like the tone and the feel of the amp and until I hear what people are saying, I won't go down that road. But the fact is that last 2 weeks, the other guitarist in our band was playing on a Fender Deluxe Reverb 40W tube amp. You know, the awesome sounding one? At that moment - I could hear what people were saying. The sound is nowhere as thick as that of a good tube amp. My sound was thinner with every note he played. I'm not buying a tube amp now because I'd be jealous - the amp isn't his or anything :lol: But at that time, I heard what others said they heard I've been missing.

Anyway, the tube amps are a lot louder than solid states and besides, I've never pushed my M4 even to 1/2 of what it can produce, in a live situation, so I reckon I should be ok as far as the volume goes. The only thing I am not 100% sure is how much (percentage wise) does the volume go down when tubes start to saturate and when you clean that sound up through guitar volume knobs. Based on the testing I did on my M4, it shouldn't be too much.
Recently I've also mostly been playing at gig level volumes (we've got a loud drummer so my amp is set at the same volume during band practice as during a gig), so the priority will be setting the Floor presets for gigs. I'll probably create another batch of presets for lower volume (so, erm, 4 batches in total lol - at least on a M4 I already got 2 batches, one for my Fender Strat and one for my Gibson LP).

To be honest, I'll always use the floor chained with BDRI and then mic'ed and all of that through the PA. I don't plan on using any reverb on any of my presets, so I can control it (kinda "master control) with the amp itself. I also like the idea that if I find myself lacking some middle or bass or treble in the middle of a gig - I can easily adjust it by changing the knobs on the amp itself, opposed to changing them on every preset I'll be using and also saving those presets which is a lot more time consuming. I reckon I'll set all my treb, mid, bass EQ on floor to 5 or something, and then adjust them all together accordingly with the amp itself. If a preset sounds bad, I can still edit just the one to give even more bass or whatever it needs.

Again, I have no experience, but from what I've been told (by the guy actually owning the Deluxe Reverb), the tubes last around 6 or 7 years before they need to be changed. Do they have to be biased on a more regular basis? Also could you tell me what will biasing the tubes actually do?
As for the weight - the BDRI weighs about 5kg less than my M4, if I remember the numbers correctly. Granted that's got to be due to BDRI being a 1x12", whereas the M4 has 2 speakers in it.
As far as the stereo vs mono goes - yep hands down, that will be lost as the BDRI has only one speaker. Seeing how the M's speakers are so close together I don't think the difference will be too shocking though. Although if I had the M5 with 2 cabs that aren't exactly as close together as they could be - I doubt I could part with that :P

Do you mean that it defeats the purpose of the DSP due to BDRI having a speaker "EQ curve", if you will, that isn't neutral (and thus colors the tone), such as the one from M's speakers or from the amps you listed? Or is there any other reason?

Yep that's also my dilemma right now. I've saved up some cash and have decided that that money will be used for guitar gear (the money comes from me selling resources on an online game - last time it bought me about 80% of my Fender Strat Highway1, now I just got enough for M Floor). So I am considering whether M Floor would be better than the pedals. With pedals costing, averagely, 50€ (obviously not the high-end ones) I could get 6 of them and that would be it. One type of distortion, for instance, whereas with the M Floor I could get distortion from different types of amp models or from the stomp itself, or from conjunction or,... So I am torn about this.

Alternatively, instead of M Floor, I could get a Boss or a Vox multieffects unit which, as far as I know, are also very good. Used ones are in my price range. The most interesting ones are Boss GT-8, Boss GT-100, Vox Tonelab + VC-12 foot controller (with case for Tonelab and bag for VC-12; sells for 50€ more than the M Floor), and a Vox Tonlab LE. Has anyone had any experience with these and the M Floor?

I'd like to thank everyone for help thus far and for help in advance :)

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Post subject: Re: Mustang Floor (or other multieffects unit) + tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:27 pm
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The BOSS GTs and VOX Tonelabs (the Tonelab LE I think is the best in that line - the original tonelab desktop + a V12 footswitch gives you two pedals instead of one but gives you less amp models and effects) are also floor amp/effects processors just like the Mustang Floor. In my opinion niether the GTs or Tonelabs will reproduce as accurate amp models as the Floor OOMV. But both very well may have better effects for heavy rock and metal due to the Floor's only having the V1 amps and effects and thus lacking in dirt (which was remedied by the V2.)

It is just my personal opinion that when you buy a well-storied and respected tube amp, such as the BDRI; you are usually doing so because you want the sound and tone of that particular amp. You may want to add effects to the BDRI's tone, but you still want BDRI tone.

So why run an amp modeller through a BDRI? The amp models won't sound as accurate because they are colored by the BDRI. So you might consider just an effects processor rather than an amp modelling processor. (although many amp modellers have the option of switching off the amp models to just use the effects with your own amp's natural tones.)

Amp modellers are for those of us who want the tone of several different amps and, since we are not rock stars, we can't afford to buy all of those wonderful amps and then an arsenal of effects to boot... so we get a modelling amp such as the Mustang that does it all in one for a fraction of the price.

I just hate to see you give up your Mustang IV for the BDRI instead of getting the BDRI in addition to the Mustang IV... and forgetting about the Mustang Floor altogether... save the $180 - $200 there. Use your Mustang IV when you want to tool around with various amp models and effects... use your BDRI when you just want lucious pure tube driven blues tone! Most blues purists rarely use more than a light distortion pedals such as a BOSS Blues Driver (SRV used an Ibanez tubescreamer - the "Greenbox" stomp on the Mustang V2s that is sorely missing on the V1s) and a decent chorus pedal anyway... you can find both of those all day long for under $30 apiece and use them with your BDRI instead of a Floor.

I think you are right, the Mustang Floor should have been released with the additional amps/effects of the V2s... I think that is why it dove in price from $300 to $199 when the V2s came out. At $199 it is about the best deal on a amp modeling floor processor out there... but you already have a Mustang IV.

Length of time your tubes will last before needing to be biased and or replaced depends on how much you use your amp and at what volumes. Also how much you jostle the amp around moving it in cars etc. between home, practices and gigs. Even how often you switch a tube amp on and off effects tube life, which is why most tube amps feature a standby switch so you can silence the amp without powering down and cooling off the tubes. You will want at least one extra of each type of tube on hand at all times if you gig (just like extra guitar strings) in case you blow one during a gig and have to do a quick replacement.

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my gear:

Jackson USA Phil Collen PC-1
Warmoth Custom-Build Stratocaster (The Andersong)
Fender American Special Stratocaster
Squier J. Mascis Jazzmaster
Fender Mustang GT40
Eleven HeadRush w/ two Alto TS212 FRFRs


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Post subject: Re: Mustang Floor (or other multieffects unit) + tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:02 pm
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Wait, it sells for 199$ in the US? :shock: Lucky you.. Almost all the giveaways and sweepstakes are for US only and you've also got 5 year warranty AND so much cheaper stuff (at least from Fender) :( Makes me almost think that EU, where I live, is on another world :( And then one would also think that the salaries in EU are higher than in the US, due to higher prices, but in most countries - they are a lot smaller.

Here a Mustang Floor costs - don't wait for it - 285€ (a bit over 380$)! If I add in another 100€ (135$, give or take), I can get a brand new Boss GT-100. As far as I know, it has a ton more effects (a lot more ODs, for instance), ability to use compressor and overdrive together (or basically anything together with anything), more amp models (not that that is needed to be honest :lol: ) and a pedal that can control more than just one parameter. I don't care much for the 400 presets that it enables, compared to Floor's 100 (to be honest, I currently use about 15 presets with both of my guitars, possibly 20, but that's it - if I'll set 2 banks for low volume use and for stage volume use, that's still only 40), but the other stuff is great. IF the MF has the same crap headphones output as my Mustang IV, I don't think Boss can be worse. I also remember reading that the power supply was reliable, whereas from MF (according to these forums), it wasn't a good one.
The GT-100 doesn't have the XLR inputs, but I don't plan on plugging it straight to the PA so that is not an issue.

I have never tried, to be honest, to make the same tone on my M IV as I'd get from a Deluxe Reverb, for instance. I haven't played any of the amps modeled long enough to get an accurate idea of what needs to be done on my Mustang to get my sound to sound like those amps. Heck, most of those amps I haven't played at all. What I always tried to do with my presets is to create the sounds I like. Whether they resemble an actual amp that existed - I have no idea. I have tried to get some presets to sound close to the sound of cover songs I play (got a pretty good Shine On You Crazy Diamond lead guitar sound, or some stuff like I can't get no satisfaction, Scotty doesn't know, etc., but could never get a real Comfortably Numb solo sound), but I never did have a specific amp in mind, saying - "oh that's gotta sound like a Twin Reverb there".
So the BDRI coloring the sound - might sound crap, might sound awesome. But it will definitely sound unique. I think that the more tonal versatility you have, the more likely it is you'll get a sound you like. I also like the idea that I could adjust my mids, treble and bass on the spot without the need to save stuff. I at least presume that I could set that EQ on presets to neutral position and shape this EQ via the amp itself.

I do intend to make sure I like the BDRI's sound on it's own though. I don't want to think "hey it sounds crap, but a multi FX will do the trick". I want to be able to use it on it's own as well. Like you said, I will still want the BDRI's tone. In either case, I'll probably wait to get the multi FX after new year when the prices will have dropped a bit, so I should have plenty of time and opportunity to explore the sounds of BDRI :D

Ahh yeah, I suppose it was way too optimistic for me to get an approximation as to when the tubes will have to be replaced then :P How does one, exactly, change a tube? Is it that simple and fast, like a string replacement, that one could do mid-gig if a tube gets busted? Thanks for advice to not switch the amp completely off if I leave it for like 10 or 20 minutes :) It makes sense, but I probably would only have thought about it after my first tube would need a replacement :P

BTW please don't tell me that what I'm paying, 600€ or 800$ for a 3 years old BDRI, would get me a brand new BDRI in the US, seeing how the prices for a MF or the effects are as low as you've mentioned there, lol.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang Floor (or other multieffects unit) + tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:43 pm
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Sorry... $600 - $800 US would definitely get you a brand new BDRI in the US!

If you are set to get a Mustang Floor... you might see if you can find a used one on Ebay with a seller willing to ship to your country for actual shipping cost... might be cheaper for you. I would say the same thing about the BDRI... but shipping that heavy beast would be very expensive.

As for changing tubes, do a youtube search and you will find several examples of what is involved... not too difficult to change tubes. But matching tubes and biasing is a bit more complex.

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my gear:

Jackson USA Phil Collen PC-1
Warmoth Custom-Build Stratocaster (The Andersong)
Fender American Special Stratocaster
Squier J. Mascis Jazzmaster
Fender Mustang GT40
Eleven HeadRush w/ two Alto TS212 FRFRs


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Post subject: Re: Mustang Floor (or other multieffects unit) + tube amp
Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:04 am
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Damn :/ New ones go here for around 1100$ :/

I've tried a couple of times, but every time I searched for either an amp on Ebay or something like that, the shipping and the customs almost double the price of the product :(

Will do, thanks :) Is the process of changing tubes normally the same for all amps, like changing a battery on a mobile, or does it depend model to model?

Thanks mate :)

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Post subject: Re: Mustang Floor (or other multieffects unit) + tube amp
Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:37 am
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just a word of caution. Before spending a truckload of money make sure you are targeting the right piece of equipment. The reason most people buy modellers (like mustangs) is because they want a great palette of tones in an inexpensive package. traditional tube amps will provide you neither of both :)

Risking to be shunned by many old-time amp lovers, your are cornering yourself into a specific tonal corner. Remember, the reason the guitar pedals were invented in the first place is because the amps are rather limited on the tones you can get out of them by themselves.

The other downside to tube amps is that they do not work well in a number of situations particularly when paired with mode let like mustang floor or similar:
-as you increase (or lower) the volume on the tube amp your tone will change. they are build specifically with that characteristic in mind. so you are going to tweak extensively your mustang floor tone when changing the volume on your amp.
-if you use your amp as a monitor, and at the same time feeding a PA directly from your Floor, your audience and yourself will hear very different things, which actually defeats the idea of having a monitor :)

what many people will do is try to get a transparent (non tube) power amp to be used a s a monitor, you can find those for a small fraction of the cost of an all-tube guitar amp. On top of that there are a number of hybrid tube-solid state power amps that are still transparent (no tone added) while using tubes for extra compression and tubby-feeling. Check the Tech-21's for example. I'm building myself one of those as a holidays time project :)


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Post subject: Re: Mustang Floor (or other multieffects unit) + tube amp
Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:24 am
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+1 to jedi2b...

Dude, don't trade your Mustang IV for a tube amp and Mustang Floor. I think you will miss your Mustang IV when its gone! If you want a BDRI, get it as a second amp and don't buy the Floor. Just use your Mustang IV when you want to model and use your BDRI when you want it's natural tone or if you want to play around with analog pedals. That way you get the best of both worlds!

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Tiger J

my gear:

Jackson USA Phil Collen PC-1
Warmoth Custom-Build Stratocaster (The Andersong)
Fender American Special Stratocaster
Squier J. Mascis Jazzmaster
Fender Mustang GT40
Eleven HeadRush w/ two Alto TS212 FRFRs


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Post subject: Re: Mustang Floor (or other multieffects unit) + tube amp
Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:45 am
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Thanks jedi :) I realize a tube amp on it's own just offers tones from a single amp, whereas Ms offer tones from a dozen different amps. So I know I'll have to buy a multi FX unit to be completely satisfied, as I do want a wide range of tonal capabilities at my feet :) I do reckon, though, that a FX unit itself that costs as much as a MIV should have components of superior quality and thus should also sound better. Same goes for the amp.
I don't intend on using the FX straight into the PA as it would miss the amp 'punch' (and I would have to rely on monitors only to give me a decent info of what the audience is hearing and it is happening more and more often that I hear completely different stuff through monitors on the gig itself than on the sound check -.-) . I've always had my amp miced :) There is, however, a quite awesome sounding feature on the Boss GT-100 - dividing the signal chain into 2 chains and one could go to the amp, whereas the second one could go straight into the PA. Get different effects on those chains (example, one sound is clean, the other is overdriven or something) and you can get an awesome tone out of it :)

The volume thingy is more difficult to handle with tube amps, true. I'm guessing the workaround would be to create different patches for different volume levels, but that should sort the issue, right? I'm guessing I'd have to adjust pedals, if I had any, for different volume levels as well - and I couldn't 'save' settings for those xD
I also do realize that I won't get the same tone as the preset is supposed to model (due to the amp not being transparent, like you said, so the colorization will happen), but I am not exactly interested in sounding like someone else (except in rare few cases), I am more interested in getting a unique, awesome sounding tone that does not necessarily have to be one that a specific amp produces.

What I don't want is that the multi FX would 'ruin' the amp and make it sound too digital.

Tiger - mate I wish that were an option for me :/ Sadly I can't afford to have multiple amps :/ I also would get tired if the BDRI would be able to produce only one specific 'natural' tone. I do want (and also use) different effects, pedals, etc., so I do need the tonal versatility at my feet. If I have (almost) no versatility, it isn't exactly useful for my needs.

Basically I want to upgrade my gear and don't want to spend thousands of $ on effects and whatnot. I am not worried whether it will sound exactly the same as it does now - I want it to sound better and I want to have a vast array of tones at my feet. Whether that array is exactly the same as now or a bit different is not really a concern. I think that if one has a very versatile gear, one should be able to dial something in that sounds good to them :)

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Post subject: Re: Mustang Floor (or other multieffects unit) + tube amp
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:56 pm
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Here's a list of all the built in Amps and StompBoxes...
http://notelr.com/roheylivne/The-Definitive-Fender-FUSE-List


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