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Post subject: Re: Accuracy of tuner on MIIv2
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:16 pm
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FFXIhealer wrote:
I can tune the Low-E perfectly, but then any fretted note near the nut will be sharp. So I INTENTIONALLY tune Low-E slightly flat (just barely Red-Green). Then I will fret G (3rd fret) and play it on the tuner to make sure it's exactly at Green


I believe this is typically due to the nut being cut a little too high (for the one string in your case). If you have a file you can try taking it down just a tad and see if it helps.

Another possibility is if you've fitted thicker strings, they may be sitting a little higher than they should--in this case you don't want to file the nut down; instead, you'd need to widen the slot so that the string rests at the correct height.

HTH,

PITA


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Post subject: Re: Accuracy of tuner on MIIv2
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:24 pm
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Neimenljivi wrote:
Imho it's best to tune open strings in perfect pitch and then set up the intonation first to be perfect at the octave, 12th fret, then 6th fret, then try to set up all of the other frets as best as possible and try to compensate with fingers on those frets that aren't in perfect pitch, rather than by detuning open strings to be a bit flat (because in your case, all the other frets will then be flat as well, except the first 3 or 4, whereas the frets from 15th onwards will be even more flat than the frets from 4-15).


Pardon me for being a bit pedantic, I'm not seeing how it is possible to adjust intonation at more than one other location between the nut and bridge. Can you explain your process please?

Agree with your main point though, a "properly" tuned guitar can be made to sound out of tune, e.g., if pressing too hard (worse with taller frets), or very commonly, double stops while bending one string, on a floating bridge (eventually you have to figure out how much of a micro-bend to apply to the "stationary" string to keep it at the right pitch).

Similarly, small adjustments (and a good ear) can make a slightly out of tune instrument sound good.

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Post subject: Re: Accuracy of tuner on MIIv2
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:31 pm
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scott-uk wrote:
I have a related question. To get the most accurate tuning, I pluck the strings over the 12th fret, with my thumb, to get as 'pure' a root note as possible with minimal overtones. I wonder if that's actually the best way to do it, or what others have found works well for them?


Not sure, I can't say I've had any issues with the tuner on my MIII(v1) with any of my guitars (possibly my ear is not good enough to detect any discrepancies).

Quote:
Once a string is tuned, I then also then play octave (ie 12th fret) harmonics and see if those are still accurately in tune, as well as the fretted (12th fret again) octave note. Depending on the instrument, it's sometimes a compromise to get all three of those as close as possible to the right frequency.


The open and octave harmonic should be essentially close to dead on, just from the physics of the thing (subject perhaps to minor perturbances, such as irregularly distributed mass along the string length [as might happen if you've worn divots into the string with a lot of bending], how hard it's struck, ...[more stuff I probably am not aware of]).

Adjustable saddles can help get the fretted note intonated.

Quote:
Then, if all else fails, turn volume and gain to 11 and play hard and loud :-)


Ha, that usually works pretty well too!
8)

PITA


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Post subject: Re: Accuracy of tuner on MIIv2
Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:00 am
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Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:27 am
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PITA wrote:
Neimenljivi wrote:
Imho it's best to tune open strings in perfect pitch and then set up the intonation first to be perfect at the octave, 12th fret, then 6th fret, then try to set up all of the other frets as best as possible and try to compensate with fingers on those frets that aren't in perfect pitch, rather than by detuning open strings to be a bit flat (because in your case, all the other frets will then be flat as well, except the first 3 or 4, whereas the frets from 15th onwards will be even more flat than the frets from 4-15).


Pardon me for being a bit pedantic, I'm not seeing how it is possible to adjust intonation at more than one other location between the nut and bridge. Can you explain your process please?

Agree with your main point though, a "properly" tuned guitar can be made to sound out of tune, e.g., if pressing too hard (worse with taller frets), or very commonly, double stops while bending one string, on a floating bridge (eventually you have to figure out how much of a micro-bend to apply to the "stationary" string to keep it at the right pitch).

Similarly, small adjustments (and a good ear) can make a slightly out of tune instrument sound good.

PITA



You can set the intonation by moving the bridge saddles (ok and it can be also changed by lowering/increasing action, truss rod adjustment, but all those changes should be done before the intonation). However what I meant is that your octave could be in perfect pitch, but the rest of the frets aren't. That's when you've gotta make tiny, tiny adjustments to the bridge saddles and get the most of frets sorted out. You can't sort out all the frets though, some are bound to be sharp and some flat.

So that's what I meant, adjusting at bridge saddles, first a major adjustment to set the octave right, then a smaller adjustment to set the 6th fret right (and this will most likely also set the frets 5 and 7 right and also 11th fret right), then make tiny adjustments to sort out the other frets, because if the adjustments are too big, you will off-set the pitch of octave :)

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Post subject: Re: Accuracy of tuner on MIIv2
Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:20 am
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Hi,
my favourite (and "scientific" but not necessarily highly accurate) methods to tune a guitar was , and are :

- generate and play enough loud a clean wave with the same frequency of the open string to tune..
then listen to the interaction or battimenti (beats) and tune the string until the two sounds are in unison. I used this with acoustic guitar.

- first tune a string with a reference (tuner or other) , and then tune the other strings with the help of distortion listening to the beats enhanced by distortion.. expecially with the natural harmonics method it works even better. (eletric guitar)

this is valid also if you don't need a particular tuning at the moment and want just tune the guitar to be able to play it without dissonances.. (matters little if it is a half step above or below for example.) . You take one of the strings as a reference relative to tune the other ..
this is a rough method of course that all we know.
another scientific method is use the symphatetic resonance between strings.. (studies of Archimedes)
Application: tune the 6th string , play the 5th fret and watch to the resonance / vibration of the 5th string.. (a dark fretboard helps as a background) if the attack is immediate there is good tune , if there is a vibration but it occurs with a delay you are close to the correct tuning but it requires adjustment , then proceed with the 5th fret 5th string and watch to the vibration of the 4th string, and so on .. however, the limit of this method is that is difficult to see the vibration on the first string ..


Last edited by frondizi on Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Accuracy of tuner on MIIv2
Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:56 am
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PITA wrote:
FFXIhealer wrote:
I can tune the Low-E perfectly, but then any fretted note near the nut will be sharp. So I INTENTIONALLY tune Low-E slightly flat (just barely Red-Green). Then I will fret G (3rd fret) and play it on the tuner to make sure it's exactly at Green


I believe this is typically due to the nut being cut a little too high (for the one string in your case). If you have a file you can try taking it down just a tad and see if it helps.

Another possibility is if you've fitted thicker strings, they may be sitting a little higher than they should--in this case you don't want to file the nut down; instead, you'd need to widen the slot so that the string rests at the correct height.

HTH,

PITA


I had this a while back. In my case, i had installed an LSR nut on my Frankenstrat which was spared when all of my gear got stolen since luckily it was in a different location. (another thread). That guitar sat dormant for a while and when i decided to get back in to playing and get it in good playing shape i noticed notes fretted lower down the neck were sharp. Particularly those on the first fret. turned out i needed to remove the shims from underneath the LSR nut. Removed those and all was good. Learned how to do my own set up and got it set up pretty good for my liking. Bin a while though so probably a good time to give it another check. Played a bit lastnight though and seems fine. I think with the Low E, i have to just slowly tune up untill it just hits green or below and then double check with open chords. I'll try and bring my laptop home tonight and check it with the fuse tuner. If the fuse software tuner is accurate i suppose i can use that to check my intonation and adjust saddles accordingly if necessary.

cheers

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