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Post subject: Mustang III v2 is awesome
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:27 pm
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That is all.


Last edited by Her Wanna on Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Why Isn't M3 "boxy"?
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:28 pm
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Her Wanna wrote:
M3's 100W is like 40W tube amp, at least, right....but the definition of "boxy" sound is normally too much power/too big speaker in a small box and/or closed back, making it directional?
100 watts is 100 watts 40 watts is 40 watts, be it tube or solid state transistor. Wattage is wattage simple and plain, There are plenty of reliable electronic sources on the web that can explain this better than I can, I am no expert by any means but I do study electronics on my own when I feel inclined to do so and the truth is wattage is wattage, tubes or solid state,. alot of misinformation is passed around on forums about tube wattage vs, solid state wattage but the fact is wattage is a constant, you do not have to take my word for it, the real information is out there, the reason people think tube wattage is louder is because generally tube amps use more effecient speakers. the more effecient your speaker the more volume will be put out to the speaker, The wattage is a constant, but speaker effeciency will lead one to believe that tube watts are not the same as solid state but they in fact are, The key difference is speaker efficiency


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Post subject: Re: Why Isn't M3 "boxy"?
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:34 pm
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Kreature wrote:
Her Wanna wrote:
M3's 100W is like 40W tube amp, at least, right....but the definition of "boxy" sound is normally too much power/too big speaker in a small box and/or closed back, making it directional?
100 watts is 100 watts 40 watts is 40 watts, be it tube or solid state transistor. Wattage is wattage simple and plain, There are plenty of reliable electronic sources on the web that can explain this better than I can, I am no expert by any means but I do study electronics on my own when I feel inclined to do so and the truth is wattage is wattage, tubes or solid state,. alot of misinformation is passed around on forums about tube wattage vs, solid state wattage but the fact is wattage is a constant, you do not have to take my word for it, the real information is out there, the reason people think tube wattage is louder is because generally tube amps use more effecient speakers. the more effecient your speaker the more volume will be put out to the speaker, The wattage is a constant, but speaker effeciency will lead one to believe that tube watts are not the same as solid state but they in fact are, The key difference is speaker efficiency

Yes wattage is wattage and speaker efficiency plays a role, BUT..... it is generally known that it takes around 3 times the wattage on a solid state amp to have the *perceived* volume of a tube amp.

Solid state amps when turned up real loud will give you a nasty distortion but a tube amp cranked up real loud will distort with harmonic poise. Can i say that?

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Post subject: Re: Why Isn't M3 "boxy"?
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:18 pm
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http://bcae1.com/ here is a site that explains everything you would ever need to know about basic audio electronics, ohms law, resistors, everything. the perceived volume you are speaking of has to do with speaker efficiency, I'm not gonna dispute the difference between harmonic distortion of tubes vs the nastiness of transistors clipping, but the same wattage will produce the same volume with the same speakers regardless of tubes or transistors


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Post subject: Re: Why Isn't M3 "boxy"?
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:39 pm
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Kreature wrote:
http://bcae1.com/ here is a site that explains everything you would ever need to know about basic audio electronics, ohms law, resistors, everything. the perceived volume you are speaking of has to do with speaker efficiency, I'm not gonna dispute the difference between harmonic distortion of tubes vs the nastiness of transistors clipping, but the same wattage will produce the same volume with the same speakers regardless of tubes or transistors

Have not been to that site and you cannot believe everything you read on the internet and I still *AGREE* with you about volume and I still stand by what i said verbatim. I have many, many solid state and tube amps to prove it. The perceived volume is a whole different thing, that's all.

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Post subject: Re: Why Isn't M3 "boxy"?
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:35 pm
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HIO wrote:
Kreature wrote:
http://bcae1.com/ here is a site that explains everything you would ever need to know about basic audio electronics, ohms law, resistors, everything. the perceived volume you are speaking of has to do with speaker efficiency, I'm not gonna dispute the difference between harmonic distortion of tubes vs the nastiness of transistors clipping, but the same wattage will produce the same volume with the same speakers regardless of tubes or transistors

Have not been to that site and you cannot believe everything you read on the internet and I still *AGREE* with you about volume and I still stand by what i said verbatim. I have many, many solid state and tube amps to prove it. The perceived volume is a whole different thing, that's all.

you can believe everything you read on that particular site, it is pretty much a standard text book that you would study in any college course, that site is not based on somebody's opinion,. that particular site is there to teach you how to understand how electronics work and it is a very reliable source of information, I'm not trying to start an argument, only to present facts, this perception of volume tube vs solid state has everything to do with speaker efficiency, I have not made any claims that are not true, I agree with you that transistors do clip and cause a nasty distortion and when tubes get pushed to clipping they produce a harmonic break up, but as far as loudness watts are a constant and tube amps tend to be higher quality and tend to utilize more efficient speakers, that in and of itself explains why you can hear a difference, more efficient speakers produce more volume per watt, Some people just like to argue just to argue and ignore the facts, Everything I have said can be proven as fact by any basic electronic text book,. but if you are interested you should take a look at that site I posted the link to. Nothing on that site can be disputed,


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Post subject: Re: Why Isn't M3 "boxy"?
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:55 pm
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Kreature wrote:
HIO wrote:
Kreature wrote:
http://bcae1.com/ here is a site that explains everything you would ever need to know about basic audio electronics, ohms law, resistors, everything. the perceived volume you are speaking of has to do with speaker efficiency, I'm not gonna dispute the difference between harmonic distortion of tubes vs the nastiness of transistors clipping, but the same wattage will produce the same volume with the same speakers regardless of tubes or transistors

Have not been to that site and you cannot believe everything you read on the internet and I still *AGREE* with you about volume and I still stand by what i said verbatim. I have many, many solid state and tube amps to prove it. The perceived volume is a whole different thing, that's all.

you can believe everything you read on that particular site, it is pretty much a standard text book that you would study in any college course, that site is not based on somebody's opinion,. that particular site is there to teach you how to understand how electronics work and it is a very reliable source of information, I'm not trying to start an argument, only to present facts, this perception of volume tube vs solid state has everything to do with speaker efficiency, I have not made any claims that are not true, I agree with you that transistors do clip and cause a nasty distortion and when tubes get pushed to clipping they produce a harmonic break up, but as far as loudness watts are a constant and tube amps tend to be higher quality and tend to utilize more efficient speakers, that in and of itself explains why you can hear a difference, more efficient speakers produce more volume per watt, Some people just like to argue just to argue and ignore the facts, Everything I have said can be proven as fact by any basic electronic text book,. but if you are interested you should take a look at that site I posted the link to. Nothing on that site can be disputed,

Sigh! With all due respect, I have been at this for a very long time and you are just plain wrong when it comes to the *point* i have tried to make. Ask anyone who really knows guitar amps and i do know electronics and in the way you refer to.

Peace, and i really due appreciate your input.

Love, HIO

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Post subject: Re: Why Isn't M3 "boxy"?
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:59 am
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If I was wrong i would gladly admit it, but the fact is that you can not debunk the science, It really doesn't matter how long you have been at this, you obviously don't know the inner workings of electronic devices all that well if you think I am wrong, I have presented nothing but facts that can not be debunked. I don't have anything to prove to you, If you don't believe that electronic technicians that build and design electronic circuits know these things then so be it


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Post subject: Re: Why Isn't M3 "boxy"?
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:06 am
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A lot of emotion on a topic where I think everyone is actually in broad agreement.

1. The power rating of an amp isn't a reliable indication of "perceived volume" (ie how loud it sounds to a human ear). It might be useful when comparing two amps of otherwise identical design / construction, it's completely useless as a comparison between different types of amp.

2. The efficiency and sensitivity of the speaker do have a big effect on perceived volume. As does the shape/design of the speaker cabinet, the directionality of the speaker units (and cabinet), and the position of the listener in relation to the cabinet. This can apply when comparing two different SS amps, two valve (tube) amps, or one of each.

3. For guitar amps, valve/tube amps sound louder mainly because the stated power rating has little to do with the actual power levels at which they're used. Laws/regulations/standards mean that manufacturers have to quote peak power ratings for the loudest the amp can go without any distortion (or with distortion below some very small, standardised level).

3a. For a SS amp, that's actually the loudest the amp can go: even though the components can quite happily cope with more power, there's just no point; once you're into SS distortion, it sounds awful so you can go no louder.

3b. For a valve amp, the opposite is true; due to the way valves distort sound, it actually sounds better (for the purpose of guitar amplification, not for hi-fi reproduction!) to use the amp beyond its peak power rating. So the stated power is really a lower limit, not an upper limit (and is why it's bad to have too powerful a valve amp if you want to play it quietly). Again the components are perfectly happy with more power - and will have been selected deliberately to cope with operating at much higher power levels than the amp's notional peak level.

4. To me, one gets a 'boxy' sound when the amp/speaker/cabinet is attenuating the bottom and top-end frequencies too much. That's typically due to a limitation in the design of the amp - typically putting a big speaker in a small cabinet (to give greater volume in a small package) can cause this. Some modern amps seem to have this sort of sound deliberately designed into them, to emulate 'classic' guitar/amp sounds.


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Post subject: Re: Why Isn't M3 "boxy"?
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:31 am
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I love your post Scott, should be a sticky one here :)

I would simply add, that on top of all that, in the case of emulation amps like the Mustang series, it makes little sense to talk about perceived volume in a general way, as the perceived volume will vary greatly from one preset to the next. This is in big part given to the harmonic content from one preset to the next. The more harmonics (for example, more distortion/overdrive/etc) the higher the perceived volume.

As an example, if you adjust your mustang for exactly 10 watts output and stay in from of it at 3 feet distance, and select a basic Twin 65 preset, the volume level will be nothing to write home about. Now stay at 10 watts output, but select the metal 2000 preset.. and run for cover.

Be aware this kind of testing is known to cause heart attacks :)


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Post subject: Re: Why Isn't M3 "boxy"?
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:54 am
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Good info, guys. Thanks. Yeah, there is a reason why M4 is 150 watts and the "deluxe sized" M3 is 100 watts...while the 22W deluxe is famous for being extremely loud.

Okay, so the question is:

Is the Mustang 3 v2 "boxy" and/or why don't I read about people complaining that it's boxy?

It has a 12-inch speaker in a small box. Is the box well designed and made of wood? (even many tube snobs put down even the modern reissue tube amps because of what the box is made of--saying only the real vintage stuff is any good) (then they buy those and come on fender.com to complain they found out it was stored in a flooded basement for 40 years and has all sorts of problems and the tremelo doesn't work lol)

The reason I ask is that even the tube snobs complain about certain tube amps, namely the Blues and Hot Rod series. They say they are boxy shitboxes.

We all know there were a lot of complaints about fizz with regard to the v1s and other complaints about mustangs, but I don't recall anyone ever saying an M3 was "boxy." It has a lot of power and a 12-inch speaker in a small box.

I have an M4v1 that I love, but I want a v2 and I'm actually considering the M3 this time simply to have an amp that is more portable for grab 'n go, as the M4 is nearly the size of a real Twin and weighs 47 pounds and I don't have a van.


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Post subject: Re: Why Isn't M3 "boxy"?
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:09 am
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Yes I find the (current) Blues Junior amp sounds boxy. My (not fully researched) belief is that this has been done deliberately to make the amp sound similar to similar Fender amps from the 60s.

I compared the Mustang 3 V1 (nb not V2) side-by-side with a Blues Junior. They are similar-ish physical sizes. The Mustang didn't sound boxy. I don't know exactly why. The open back probably helps, plus the Mustang sound is 'tuned' in the DSP to take account of the physical cabinet and speaker.

Purely my opinion, I find the Mustang 4 has a bigger, more spacious sound than the 3. It just feels fuller and more rounded, even at low volumes. But if I hadn't heard a Mustang 4, I'd be more than happy with a Mustang 3. I only mention this as you already have a 4 and are considering a 3. The portability of the 3 is important, and it's plenty loud enough. If portability is the key factor, you won't be disappointed with a 3, at least from my memory of trying one. But I'd strongly recommend you try a 3 before buying if you have any doubts.

Note the Mustang cabinets aren't made of 'solid' wood, I mention just because you ask. I don't know about other Fender amps.


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Post subject: Re: Why Isn't M3 "boxy"?
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:27 am
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scott-uk wrote:
Yes I find the (current) Blues Junior amp sounds boxy. My (not fully researched) belief is that this has been done deliberately to make the amp sound similar to similar Fender amps from the 60s.

I compared the Mustang 3 V1 (nb not V2) side-by-side with a Blues Junior. They are similar-ish physical sizes. The Mustang didn't sound boxy. I don't know exactly why. The open back probably helps, plus the Mustang sound is 'tuned' in the DSP to take account of the physical cabinet and speaker.

Purely my opinion, I find the Mustang 4 has a bigger, more spacious sound than the 3. It just feels fuller and more rounded, even at low volumes. But if I hadn't heard a Mustang 4, I'd be more than happy with a Mustang 3. I only mention this as you already have a 4 and are considering a 3. The portability of the 3 is important, and it's plenty loud enough. If portability is the key factor, you won't be disappointed with a 3, at least from my memory of trying one. But I'd strongly recommend you try a 3 before buying if you have any doubts.

Note the Mustang cabinets aren't made of 'solid' wood, I mention just because you ask. I don't know about other Fender amps.


Thanks again. Very helpful posts. Yeah.... I gotta go do some testing. I really love the M4 but I think I do need a smaller one for portability (that still sounds good, unlike my line 6 toy amp that I'm trying to sell).

I have a plan to start doing "flash mob" outdoor busking (not asking for money; just to play) and I have figured out I don't need a battery-powered amp like the street cube. I have located several spots downtown where there are plugs available on the outside of buildings (!!! LOL !!!). I plan to roll up and quickly set up my rig (whatever it is) and jam out a little bit.

Has anyone ever done this or heard of anyone doing this? I don't think I'll get arrested, even though it is technically stealing electricity. I think worst case scenario is I'll be told to leave or stop.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And I might offer my services for free--like set up and play in a corner of various restaurants I have identified that might let me do it.

So the portability of M3 would be great and obviously it would be waaaaaay louder than I would need. And would be playing clean tones anyway. Nobody but me wants to hear my Nirvana stuff.

What I need to determine is if the M3 will sound as good (or even better?) than a real Princeton for these clean singer/songwriter/almost-jazz type things I plan to do at low/medium volume.


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Post subject: Re: Why Isn't M3 "boxy"?
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:08 am
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scott-uk wrote:
A lot of emotion on a topic where I think everyone is actually in broad agreement.

1. The power rating of an amp isn't a reliable indication of "perceived volume" (ie how loud it sounds to a human ear). It might be useful when comparing two amps of otherwise identical design / construction, it's completely useless as a comparison between different types of amp.

2. The efficiency and sensitivity of the speaker do have a big effect on perceived volume. As does the shape/design of the speaker cabinet, the directionality of the speaker units (and cabinet), and the position of the listener in relation to the cabinet. This can apply when comparing two different SS amps, two valve (tube) amps, or one of each.

3. For guitar amps, valve/tube amps sound louder mainly because the stated power rating has little to do with the actual power levels at which they're used. Laws/regulations/standards mean that manufacturers have to quote peak power ratings for the loudest the amp can go without any distortion (or with distortion below some very small, standardised level).

3a. For a SS amp, that's actually the loudest the amp can go: even though the components can quite happily cope with more power, there's just no point; once you're into SS distortion, it sounds awful so you can go no louder.

3b. For a valve amp, the opposite is true; due to the way valves distort sound, it actually sounds better (for the purpose of guitar amplification, not for hi-fi reproduction!) to use the amp beyond its peak power rating. So the stated power is really a lower limit, not an upper limit (and is why it's bad to have too powerful a valve amp if you want to play it quietly). Again the components are perfectly happy with more power - and will have been selected deliberately to cope with operating at much higher power levels than the amp's notional peak level.

4. To me, one gets a 'boxy' sound when the amp/speaker/cabinet is attenuating the bottom and top-end frequencies too much. That's typically due to a limitation in the design of the amp - typically putting a big speaker in a small cabinet (to give greater volume in a small package) can cause this. Some modern amps seem to have this sort of sound deliberately designed into them, to emulate 'classic' guitar/amp sounds.

This actually adds something to the discussion. still if the wattages are actually equal it comes down to speaker efficiency, transistors clip and sound nasty when pushed too hard, tubes break up and produce harmonic distortion, I had already mentioned that and acknowledged that, "that's all I got to say about that" ( Forrest Gump )


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Post subject: Re: Why Isn't M3 "boxy"?
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:15 am
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Agreed. I had a 120 Watt Crate many years ago as my first amp. Didn’t know crap back then… not that I do now but that didn’t get nearly as loud as the Roland JC120 I would plug into at a rehearsal space me and a few buddies from work would go to occasionally. I’m fairly certan the Roland is the same wattage but I didn’t need to put that bastard past two or three with the drums going. If I remember correctly (we’re talking 1993 here) I would have to put the Crate on about 5-7 to have a chance at being heard over the drums. Two completely different amps, both SS, both same wattage, both 2x12 but one blew my hair back and the one just blew.

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