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Post subject: MUSTANG V.2 how obtain Pat Metheny's guitar sound
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:23 am
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Hi guys,
i've got a Mustang III v2 and i'm trying to take out a sound likes that Pat Metheny guitar (the sound of his midi guitar seems a trumpet in "James" in the album Offramp!!).
I know that's impossible to have a midi guitar sound ... without a midi guitar :roll: but if someone of you have succeed in doing it ... please give me some help !!
About my guitar ... I've got a Gibson Howard Robert Fusion III. :wink:
Thanks


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Post subject: Re: MUSTANG V.2 how obtain Pat Metheny's guitar sound
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:13 am
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I get a nice Metheny sound by starting out with the Deluxe Reverb with very low gain. Turn the preamp volume all the way up (not the master volume). Crank up the bass all the way, then turn the highs and mids down. Finally, use a LOT of hall reverb and use your neck pickup only. It sounds like it would be a muddy mess but you can actually get some great Metheny sounds form this patch. Of course it's not that synth-like sound though. Have fun!

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Guitars: Fender A.D.E Strat - Schecter PT with Duncans - Martin OOOC16RGTE
PA Gear: Alesis MultiMix 10 Mixer - Carvin FX2 - EV ZLX12P Powered Speakers
Amps: Fender Mustang III v2 - Alto Kick 12
Effects: Line 6 M13


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Post subject: Re: MUSTANG V.2 how obtain Pat Metheny's guitar sound
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:37 am
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jwoertz wrote:
I get a nice Metheny sound by starting out with the Deluxe Reverb with very low gain. Turn the preamp volume all the way up (not the master volume). Crank up the bass all the way, then turn the highs and mids down. Finally, use a LOT of hall reverb and use your neck pickup only. It sounds like it would be a muddy mess but you can actually get some great Metheny sounds form this patch. Of course it's not that synth-like sound though. Have fun!



Many many many thanks !!
As soon as possible I'll "taste" your suggest and ... I'll post you everything about it.
In the mean time I've a question about your set: don't use any efx (delay, compressor, etc.) for this Metheny's sound set?


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Post subject: Re: MUSTANG V.2 how obtain Pat Metheny's guitar sound
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:43 am
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No effects except reverb. Compressor gives it too much attack. You want that nice mellow sound.

newMustang wrote:
jwoertz wrote:
I get a nice Metheny sound by starting out with the Deluxe Reverb with very low gain. Turn the preamp volume all the way up (not the master volume). Crank up the bass all the way, then turn the highs and mids down. Finally, use a LOT of hall reverb and use your neck pickup only. It sounds like it would be a muddy mess but you can actually get some great Metheny sounds form this patch. Of course it's not that synth-like sound though. Have fun!



Many many many thanks !!
As soon as possible I'll "taste" your suggest and ... I'll post you everything about it.
In the mean time I've a question about your set: don't use any efx (delay, compressor, etc.) for this Metheny's sound set?

_________________
Guitars: Fender A.D.E Strat - Schecter PT with Duncans - Martin OOOC16RGTE
PA Gear: Alesis MultiMix 10 Mixer - Carvin FX2 - EV ZLX12P Powered Speakers
Amps: Fender Mustang III v2 - Alto Kick 12
Effects: Line 6 M13


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Post subject: Re: MUSTANG V.2 how obtain Pat Metheny's guitar sound
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:04 pm
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HI,

a few weeks ago I spoke of this "discovery" on another topic ..
seem strange but was coming off a synth sound a bit like Pat in "Are you going with me?" , Using the model of American '90 amp with the gain to a minimum and by first placing the Muff Fuzz to a certain level ... I can not remember but I can try again to find that sound ...
in practice if that distortion pedal does not meet a clean amp or a sufficient low gain, the dynamic is crushed and heavily appears that sound similar to the trumpet solo ... but the good thing is that I did not want at that moment! :-))

you try to experiment with this combination and see if it can work ...

Dimitri
PS : i have also a Roland a GR-55 with included the GR300 synth sounds for Pat songs..


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Post subject: Re: MUSTANG V.2 how obtain Pat Metheny's guitar sound
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:56 pm
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frondizi wrote:
HI,

a few weeks ago I spoke of this "discovery" on another topic ..
seem strange but was coming off a synth sound a bit like Pat in "Are you going with me?" , Using the model of American '90 amp with the gain to a minimum and by first placing the Muff Fuzz to a certain level ... I can not remember but I can try again to find that sound ...
in practice if that distortion pedal does not meet a clean amp or a sufficient low gain, the dynamic is crushed and heavily appears that sound similar to the trumpet solo ... but the good thing is that I did not want at that moment! :-))

you try to experiment with this combination and see if it can work ...

Dimitri
PS : i have also a Roland a GR-55 with included the GR300 synth sounds for Pat songs..


Yes I've just red you about a post about "church sound" if I remember right. :?:

I'll try and then ... I'll write about it

Thanks a lot


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Post subject: Re: MUSTANG V.2 how obtain Pat Metheny's guitar sound
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:25 pm
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Hi,
yes you're right! it was that topic...
you should find in it some details of the exact amp model and of course the muff fuzz generic settings...
as you have find the basic sound you can add other effects to enhance and give dimension to the sound.. a little of chorus and reverb..

i'm going to search and read that post to test again the preset...

EDIT: here's the link of that topic http://forums.fender.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=86867&hilit=church&start=15
my post is in the second page.
If the basic sound you find would work you could also add the pitch shifter +12 semitones or 1 octava (level at 10 to get just shifted sound) and assign that modulation effect to one of the two buttons in the MS-2(2 buttons switch included) to switch the shifting on/off when you need it.

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: MUSTANG V.2 how obtain Pat Metheny's guitar sound
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:10 am
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frondizi wrote:
Hi,
yes you're right! it was that topic...
you should find in it some details of the exact amp model and of course the muff fuzz generic settings...
as you have find the basic sound you can add other effects to enhance and give dimension to the sound.. a little of chorus and reverb..

i'm going to search and read that post to test again the preset...

EDIT: here's the link of that topic http://forums.fender.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=86867&hilit=church&start=15
my post is in the second page.
If the basic sound you find would work you could also add the pitch shifter +12 semitones or 1 octava (level at 10 to get just shifted sound) and assign that modulation effect to one of the two buttons in the MS-2(2 buttons switch included) to switch the shifting on/off when you need it.

Dimitri


Grazie mille!
Solo adesso mi sono accorto che scrivi dall'Italia ... come me!!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Io sono della provincia di Napoli !!!!
Grazie ancora dei suggerimenti ... appena li testerò ti farò sapere!
Ciao, Gianfranco

Thank you so much
Just now I discover thet you write me from Italy ... like me!!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'm from Neaples hinterland !!!!
Thanks for your suggest ... as soon as I try it I'll reply to you about it!
Bye, Gianfranco


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Post subject: Re: MUSTANG V.2 how obtain Pat Metheny's guitar sound
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:37 am
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Ciao Gianfranco!
Oh really? from Napoli?
we are a few italians at the moment in Fender Forum... i know there is also Pepe from Milano with the fender account of "Lt. Kojak" or something like that.
by the way... in my family we usually watch "un posto al sole" :wink:
as you have seen, I'm from Prato (Tuscany).

I have done again a draft of that preset with Mustang3 V2 and tested it with my Yamaha SG800... i have 2 Humbuckers (with split to single coils on 2 tones) and 2 tones 2 volumes like a Les Paul guitar.
for this tone i prefer the neck pickup with tone more or less closed, or combination of both pickups with more neck volume than bridge pickup.
It seems to work..
i can't get the same sound a bit "nasal" or Moogy with other kind of amp models (well, perhaps a little bit with the Metal 2000) with the exception of that i told you, American '90 (mesa boogie)..

i'll try to share that preset by Fender FUSE account as soon as i can but for the moment i write in this post the draft of that preset.. it is just the starting point , you have to try variations on amp equalization, bias and so on... but i would keep the amp gain setting in a range between 1.1 to 1.6 max... that's important.
also the tone parameter, of the muff fuzz may need to be adjusted for variations of the main tone. I would say that could remain at no more than half or so to give smoothness to the tone.
The pitch shifter is set in its default position on the effect chain (but you can test for example to put it after the amp...) and its tone should be less than half , to have a sound with less artifacts or more rounded and similar to that of Pat when he switch to 1 octave above ...
(the level could be also lowered to mix the normal pitch sound with the +1 octave above to get another kind of 2 voices synth sound.)

the short tape delay is from precedent preset to give a bit of body to the monofonic output of the amp (from speaker), but is optional.

Also the reverb is copied from precedent preset and you can find something better or more intense for that kind of solo, if you want.

here are the settings draft, which I saved at the moment:
AMERICAN '90:
gain: 1.4 , vol: 3.2 , tre: 3, mid: 7.1, bass: 8 (Rev 2.6)
sag: match, bias 0, gate off, cab 4x12V (default), pres 5, mast 4.6
(most are default parameters for that model amp).

Big Fuzz:
Level: 3.2 , tone: 5.8, Gain: 4.5

Pitch shifter:
lev 10 , pitch +12, pre delay: 1, feedback: 1 , tone 3.6

tape delay:
lev: 3.2 , time: 80.6 ms, feedback:1 , wow: 5.7, tone: 8
(also here if you switch on this effect , you have to test dark tone settings to minimize artifacts..)

fender '63 spring reverb:
lev: 2.6 , decay: 2.2, dwell: 1.5, diff: 1.3 , tone: 2.2

as a monophonic synthesizer you need to play single notes and silence the other strings .. otherwise it becomes a big mess (porcaio) :-)
I must say that the sound of the preset GR300 + 1oct, in the Roland GR55 that i used as reference to create the Mustang preset, is of a similar character, bearing in mind that is precisely a simulation of the old Roland GR300, polyphonic (hexaphonic), with which you can also play chords.
However that preset also has a distortion active ... to distort the basic waveform. even though the sound of Pat is basically less distorted .. in the GR55 is still a great place to start.


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Post subject: Re: MUSTANG V.2 how obtain Pat Metheny's guitar sound
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:10 am
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frondizi wrote:
Ciao Gianfranco!
Oh really? from Napoli?
we are a few italians at the moment in Fender Forum... i know there is also Pepe from Milano with the fender account of "Lt. Kojak" or something like that.
by the way... in my family we usually watch "un posto al sole" :wink:
as you have seen, I'm from Prato (Tuscany).

I have done again a draft of that preset with Mustang3 V2 and tested it with my Yamaha SG800... i have 2 Humbuckers (with split to single coils on 2 tones) and 2 tones 2 volumes like a Les Paul guitar.
for this tone i prefer the neck pickup with tone more or less closed, or combination of both pickups with more neck volume than bridge pickup.
It seems to work..
i can't get the same sound a bit "nasal" or Moogy with other kind of amp models (well, perhaps a little bit with the Metal 2000) with the exception of that i told you, American '90 (mesa boogie)..

i'll try to share that preset by Fender FUSE account as soon as i can but for the moment i write in this post the draft of that preset.. it is just the starting point , you have to try variations on amp equalization, bias and so on... but i would keep the amp gain setting in a range between 1.1 to 1.6 max... that's important.
also the tone parameter, of the muff fuzz may need to be adjusted for variations of the main tone. I would say that could remain at no more than half or so to give smoothness to the tone.
The pitch shifter is set in its default position on the effect chain (but you can test for example to put it after the amp...) and its tone should be less than half , to have a sound with less artifacts or more rounded and similar to that of Pat when he switch to 1 octave above ...
(the level could be also lowered to mix the normal pitch sound with the +1 octave above to get another kind of 2 voices synth sound.)

the short tape delay is from precedent preset to give a bit of body to the monofonic output of the amp (from speaker), but is optional.

Also the reverb is copied from precedent preset and you can find something better or more intense for that kind of solo, if you want.

here are the settings draft, which I saved at the moment:
AMERICAN '90:
gain: 1.4 , vol: 3.2 , tre: 3, mid: 7.1, bass: 8 (Rev 2.6)
sag: match, bias 0, gate off, cab 4x12V (default), pres 5, mast 4.6
(most are default parameters for that model amp).

Big Fuzz:
Level: 3.2 , tone: 5.8, Gain: 4.5

Pitch shifter:
lev 10 , pitch +12, pre delay: 1, feedback: 1 , tone 3.6

tape delay:
lev: 3.2 , time: 80.6 ms, feedback:1 , wow: 5.7, tone: 8
(also here if you switch on this effect , you have to test dark tone settings to minimize artifacts..)

fender '63 spring reverb:
lev: 2.6 , decay: 2.2, dwell: 1.5, diff: 1.3 , tone: 2.2

as a monophonic synthesizer you need to play single notes and silence the other strings .. otherwise it becomes a big mess (porcaio) :-)
I must say that the sound of the preset GR300 + 1oct, in the Roland GR55 that i used as reference to create the Mustang preset, is of a similar character, bearing in mind that is precisely a simulation of the old Roland GR300, polyphonic (hexaphonic), with which you can also play chords.
However that preset also has a distortion active ... to distort the basic waveform. even though the sound of Pat is basically less distorted .. in the GR55 is still a great place to start.



You are my hero, man!! Great job! :shock:
Thank you so much :)


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Post subject: Re: MUSTANG V.2 how obtain Pat Metheny's guitar sound
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:48 am
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Ciao Gianfranco!
thanks for the compliments!
but have you got the time to try a little bit my settings?
What do you think?
you say, the rating is at least a sufficient (6/10)?

I also accept the criticism, without any problems.
indeed if you find the settings that you seem more effective let me know the preset shared to download (or write the variations in a post) .. so I too will experience.
you know ... The GR55 is very versatile but has a big limitation: you can only drive it through the pickup hexaphonic mounted on guitar, and on the contrary be able to use only guitar and amp, getting a sound fairly similar is a big advantage.

for the moment I try to share on Fender Fuse community the current basic preset..
the rest of the tweaking I want to leave to those who are interested in that kind of sound ..

however I have found that if you increase the level of that short tape delay setting you get a much more spacious sound and effective. The same is true of increasing the intensity of the reverb ... which is currently very low and limited.

EDIT: I'm experiencing several problems to access to the fuse account to share my preset...
i'm going to write in this post some variations i saved today in an another slot of memory.


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Post subject: Re: MUSTANG V.2 how obtain Pat Metheny's guitar sound
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:47 pm
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Here's the variations on the second Metheny synth preset:

1) pitch shifter , delay and reverb are moved to post amp chain :
pitch shifter > delay > reverb

2) pitch shifter:
tone: 5.2
short tape delay:
level: 5.2
reverb:
level: 4.7 ; decay: 4.1 ; dwell: 2.9 ; diffusion: 4.1

all the rest of parameters and effects/amp settings remain the same as in the precedent preset.


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Post subject: Re: MUSTANG V.2 how obtain Pat Metheny's guitar sound
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:50 pm
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Ok! Only now I can reply to your proposal about the preset for Pat Metheny sound.

Honestly the sound that go out from your preset was different from my idea: too distortion ... but you have just told me in advance!!!

Starting from your suggest I have made some modification so that's my proposal:

AMPLI Fender '65 PRINCETON:
gain: 4.0 , vol: 7.0 , tre: 6,4 mid: 8.1, bass: 3,6 (Rev 5,5)
(sag bias etc are default parameters for that model amp).

1st efx Diatonic Pitch Shifter:
mix: 33,2% , pitch: +1 octave, key: E, scale: minor, Tone: 78,1%


2nd efx Reverb '63 Fender Spring
Level: 5.0 , Decay: 5, D-Well: 5, Diff: 5, Tone: 5

3rd efx Reverse Delay:
lev: 2.0 , dlytime: 5, feedback: 2, Rfdback: 5, tone: 5

if you want , you can change pitch from +1 octave in +2 octave so you'll have a sound higher

Please let me know what about it


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Post subject: Re: MUSTANG V.2 how obtain Pat Metheny's guitar sound
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:39 pm
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Hi,
as soon as i can i'll try your preset but i have already the impression that you miss something to give sustain to the notes...
i thought you was searching for a lead synth sound and a clean amp on my opinion can't give that kind of compressed sound although I understand that you have to accept the compromise that my sound is based on a distortion fuzz (based on a square wave) and not based on a sawtooth wave as it should be the original.. a softer tone.

... a clean amp can gives the basic electric sound of Pat Metheny when it uses the Roland guitar as a common clean electric guitar (and sometimes also with some distorsion , as in "Half live of absolution" but that is a particular case) , but when he switches to synth solo sound the tone and the attack of the notes is different..

Pat however, usually doesn't sustain the notes in that kind of solos (are you going with me? or Third Wind) but when he holds some notes they sustain for several seconds..for example at the end of one of the live versions.
That Roland guitar, among other things is a neck-thru and then the natural sustain is long.

anyway.. i'm going to try your settings and understand if my analysis was correct or not. :)

EDIT: one thing which definitely worsens the sound of my preset is level with the pitch shifting to 100% .. has too many artifacts. you have rightly thought of leaving in the background the sound one octave above .. but we must make sure that the diatonic shifter operates according to the notes you play .. If you set the key of E, and the minor scale, then you have to play the notes that go well with that key and scale otherwise not come out the right harmony. But with the pitch shifter, harmony does not change regardless of the notes you play or scale or tonality.

And distortion of Muff fuzz, it is actually too much.
Have you already tried to significantly decrease the "sustain" or gain, on the fuzz? for example around 1.8/1.9?
and change the "sag" of the amp to "more" to have a slightly higher compression and additional sustain ?
in this way the distortion decreases enough, the character of the sound remains similar and can be adjusted with the tone and volume of the guitar.

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: MUSTANG V.2 how obtain Pat Metheny's guitar sound
Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:27 am
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I have red everything you reply me but ... I'm a beginner into this "efx land" :) I've to study a lot :shock: to understand every your suggestions. I really hope you'll want to drive me long these "wild paths" !!! :lol: I have made only some attempts blindly 8) . I think that when you'll listen to the sound that come out of my preset ... you'll able to help me to take the right way to achieve the goal that I try to find out. I would like to begin to use the mustang and its efx more consciounsly! :idea:
:?: I'm looking forward to know your mind about the "taste" of my preset !!!
Thank you very much
Gianfranco


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