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Post subject: What is the "gain" on a real '65 Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:09 am
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Aspiring Musician
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This is a question for those who have played both a Mustang and a real '65 Deluxe. Here is what I mean by the question. I'm talking about while the tone is still totally clean, before "break up" starts, at whatever volume that is on the real Deluxe (let's talk about the DRRI (the reissue '65 Deluxe), not a vintage, since that's what I would get).

As we Mustang lovers know, the mustang has a "gain" knob that controls gain as a measure of "break up" independent of volume. The real '65 Deluxe, of course, has only a volume knob and starts to break up at a certain volume when the tubes are pushed.

What is the "gain" of a real '65 Deluxe, as it would relate on the Mustang, while the tone is still totally clean?

In other words, I tend to like to put my gain anywhere from 2 to 3.5 on my Mustang when playing the '65 Deluxe model clean, and that's very clean, but it can also go up to gain on 5 and still be pretty clean.

What's the real '65 Deluxe's gain (if it had a knob to measure it) on the Mustang? Is it like having gain on 3, or more like even 5 or so?

Reason I ask is I realize that I used to play *very* dry, like w/ gain way down at 1.5, and I was thinking that is actually too little gain and even a "clean" tone '65 is like having gain at 3 or 4.

????


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Post subject: Re: What is the "gain" on a real '65 Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:37 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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It depends on what tubes you have, bias setting, amp tone settings, pickups, speaker, string size, attack on the strings, etc.

I have owned 7 or 8 Deluxe Reverb reissues and have two currently. With that said subjectively on average you generally start to get break up at around 4 and that is really loud and at around 120dB where pain begins.

I just did this test for you Her Wanna with a digital sound level meter at around two feet away from the amp and with me around ten feet away.

While writing this I am noticing a slight headache on both sides of my head around my ears with only about a thirty second test. :shock: No guts no glory, eh.

Weakest sound heard 0dB
Whisper Quiet Library at 6' 30dB
Normal conversation at 3' 60-65dB
Telephone dial tone 80dB
City Traffic (inside car) 85dB
Train whistle at 500', Truck Traffic 90dB
Jackhammer at 50' 95dB
Subway train at 200' 95dB
Level at which sustained exposure may result in hearing loss 90 - 95dB
Hand Drill 98dB
Power mower at 3' 107dB
Snowmobile, Motorcycle 100dB
Power saw at 3' 110dB
Sandblasting, Loud Rock Concert 115dB
Pain begins 125dB
Pneumatic riveter at 4' 125dB
Even short term exposure can cause permanent damage - Loudest recommended exposure WITH hearing protection 140dB
Jet engine at 100' 140dB
12 Gauge Shotgun Blast 165dB
Death of hearing tissue 180dB
Loudest sound possible 194dB

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Post subject: Re: What is the "gain" on a real '65 Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:51 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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HIO wrote:
It depends on what tubes you have, bias setting, amp tone settings, pickups, speaker, string size, attack on the strings, etc.

I have owned 7 or 8 Deluxe Reverb reissues and have two currently. With that said subjectively on average you generally start to get break up at around 4 and that is really loud and at around 120dB where pain begins.

I just did this test for you Her Wanna with a digital sound level meter at around two feet away from the amp and with me around ten feet away.


lol thanks for that and I really mean that.

but i guess I'm also asking about, say, when volume is at 2 or 3.....not painful loud and not broken up...how "thick" is the DRRI's tone?

because mustang allows "gain" adjustments (at any volume) where "gain" is "thickness"

so gain at 1 is very thin but gain at 4 is still clean but getting "thicker"

of course EQ can affect the final tone we hear too.....

and I mean apples to apples...same strings, same pick attack, same guitar

should I put my gain on 2 or 4.5 for my "clean" tone lol


by the way, so they really are that loud at 4?

why are all these amps like this? what is the purpose of having a dial that goes to 10 if it's way too loud at 5?


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Post subject: Re: What is the "gain" on a real '65 Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:25 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Hi,

to put things in perspective:
-the equivalent of the `volume` knob on the DRRI is the `gain` knob on the mustang. both knobs go from 1 to 10.
-on the DRRI as in any other tube amp, as volume gets louder, tube compression kicks in, giving the tube tone, same thing with the Gain knob on the amp emulation
-If Fender did the emulation properly, the tube compression efect you should get with the gain at ten is the same you should get with the DRRI at 10

As we do not want HIO to get deaf (or he will loose interest on guitar amps altogether), one test he could perform is:
-play with the DRRI at volume 2.5
-play mustang Deluxe emulation with gain 2.5, same EQ settings as the DRRI (middle knob maybe at 5 as the DRRI does not have a middle control), volume at 10 and master volume at least at 3.5*

if things sound similar, good job fender!

* if volume or master volume are too low, the mustang speaker will eat away some of your tone


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Post subject: Re: What is the "gain" on a real '65 Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:41 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 pm
Posts: 532
Location: Here In Oregon
Her Wanna wrote:
HIO wrote:
It depends on what tubes you have, bias setting, amp tone settings, pickups, speaker, string size, attack on the strings, etc.

I have owned 7 or 8 Deluxe Reverb reissues and have two currently. With that said subjectively on average you generally start to get break up at around 4 and that is really loud and at around 120dB where pain begins.

I just did this test for you Her Wanna with a digital sound level meter at around two feet away from the amp and with me around ten feet away.


lol thanks for that and I really mean that.

but i guess I'm also asking about, say, when volume is at 2 or 3.....not painful loud and not broken up...how "thick" is the DRRI's tone?

because mustang allows "gain" adjustments (at any volume) where "gain" is "thickness"

so gain at 1 is very thin but gain at 4 is still clean but getting "thicker"

of course EQ can affect the final tone we hear too.....

and I mean apples to apples...same strings, same pick attack, same guitar

should I put my gain on 2 or 4.5 for my "clean" tone lol


by the way, so they really are that loud at 4?

why are all these amps like this? what is the purpose of having a dial that goes to 10 if it's way too loud at 5?


The DRRI’s tone like the Twin is fantastic for that *clean* sound that beats every amp I have ever heard. To get break up for distortion though one must forget about it, or go deaf along with everyone around you.

Unfortunately, even the Twin I had with a Master volume didn’t cut the mustard to my ears with an ugly overdriven distorted sound to it.

So I always use a pedal on these amps to get great break up at a lower volume. However, it is still a tad too loud to get great sound. It sounds okay at a lower volume using a pedal but these amps do not begin to howl until they are turned up a bit which for me is still too loud.

Playing at a large club, arena or outdoor venue the amps volume used to be needed to some degree but with on stage monitoring sophisticated as it is today you don’t need a loud amp behind you or even multiple stacks for *show*. Some bands today still bring the stacks but often they are not even hooked up and not to say that the old school way of doing it still doesn’t exist, but is becoming more and more rare.

Your ears will thank you when you get older and with good monitoring you will get to hear better what the crowd is hearing without the distraction of loud amps behind you. I am a Fender guy all the way down to my DNA and what I love about the Stangs is the lower volume one can play at and still get good Fender tone. Do my Mustangs sound as good as my DRRIs??? Yes and no.

For clean my DRRIs in my humble opinion win out and I am only comparing this with the Mustang 2 and the Mustang Floor. The Stangs however are *versatile* little beasts and are *fantastic* tools for the modern day guitarist, but the aforementioned problem regarding volume has been my Achilles heel for too many years so I am sticking with my Stangs for all of the reasons stated above.

Oh, and I still have ears which can actually hear and with this long post I only ask how are your eyes?

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Post subject: Re: What is the "gain" on a real '65 Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:23 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 pm
Posts: 532
Location: Here In Oregon
jedi2b wrote:
Hi,

to put things in perspective:
-the equivalent of the `volume` knob on the DRRI is the `gain` knob on the mustang. both knobs go from 1 to 10.
-on the DRRI as in any other tube amp, as volume gets louder, tube compression kicks in, giving the tube tone, same thing with the Gain knob on the amp emulation
-If Fender did the emulation properly, the tube compression efect you should get with the gain at ten is the same you should get with the DRRI at 10

As we do not want HIO to get deaf (or he will loose interest on guitar amps altogether), one test he could perform is:
-play with the DRRI at volume 2.5
-play mustang Deluxe emulation with gain 2.5, same EQ settings as the DRRI (middle knob maybe at 5 as the DRRI does not have a middle control), volume at 10 and master volume at least at 3.5*

if things sound similar, good job fender!

* if volume or master volume are too low, the mustang speaker will eat away some of your tone

Your wish is my command. Okay, I did your test and settings verbatim. Although you didn't mention this, I plugged my guitar into the DRRI's Vibrato channels 1st input which is the favorite channel for most everybody. I had to turn up the Mustang 2 Master to *5* to get a similar volume at 110dB. My wife, may God bless her soul held the dB meter two feet away from the amp's speakers.

I liked the DRRI's sound better and my wife who is also a singer and musician felt pretty much the same. We are talking about a very cheap speaker in the Mustang 2 though and again the versatility of the Stang is unbelievable and it sounded good, IOHO (in our humble opinion).

Also, when I plug my Mustang Floor into my recording studio's sound system it even gets *much* better or even through my solid state Fender Princeton Chorus with 2 10" speakers.

So without further adieu....... (scroll down to see the results of jedi2b's proposed Fender comparison test)








GOOD JOB FENDER

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Post subject: Re: What is the "gain" on a real '65 Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:40 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:08 am
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Hey Thank you and your wife for the painful testing :)

So in summary, if I read you well, gain setting on the mustang amp model is similar enough to the DRRI volume control.

I agree that speakers make a lot of difference. I tested a M2 vs M3 at the store and got the M3 for that same reason.

I use a Mustang 3 at home for practice, which sounds fantastic but I pretty much never get beyond master volume 3 (mostly 2). On the road, I use a M Floor, that sounds even better when going thru a set of 3 way Peavey powered speakers (with 15'' woofers)

P.S: I just got confirmation from the wife that she would never participate in such kind of testing, so consider yourself very lucky :)


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Post subject: Re: What is the "gain" on a real '65 Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:34 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 739
HIO wrote:
Her Wanna wrote:
HIO wrote:
It depends on what tubes you have, bias setting, amp tone settings, pickups, speaker, string size, attack on the strings, etc.

I have owned 7 or 8 Deluxe Reverb reissues and have two currently. With that said subjectively on average you generally start to get break up at around 4 and that is really loud and at around 120dB where pain begins.

I just did this test for you Her Wanna with a digital sound level meter at around two feet away from the amp and with me around ten feet away.


lol thanks for that and I really mean that.

but i guess I'm also asking about, say, when volume is at 2 or 3.....not painful loud and not broken up...how "thick" is the DRRI's tone?

because mustang allows "gain" adjustments (at any volume) where "gain" is "thickness"

so gain at 1 is very thin but gain at 4 is still clean but getting "thicker"

of course EQ can affect the final tone we hear too.....

and I mean apples to apples...same strings, same pick attack, same guitar

should I put my gain on 2 or 4.5 for my "clean" tone lol


by the way, so they really are that loud at 4?

why are all these amps like this? what is the purpose of having a dial that goes to 10 if it's way too loud at 5?


The DRRI’s tone like the Twin is fantastic for that *clean* sound that beats every amp I have ever heard. To get break up for distortion though one must forget about it, or go deaf along with everyone around you.

Unfortunately, even the Twin I had with a Master volume didn’t cut the mustard to my ears with an ugly overdriven distorted sound to it.

So I always use a pedal on these amps to get great break up at a lower volume. However, it is still a tad too loud to get great sound. It sounds okay at a lower volume using a pedal but these amps do not begin to howl until they are turned up a bit which for me is still too loud.

Playing at a large club, arena or outdoor venue the amps volume used to be needed to some degree but with on stage monitoring sophisticated as it is today you don’t need a loud amp behind you or even multiple stacks for *show*. Some bands today still bring the stacks but often they are not even hooked up and not to say that the old school way of doing it still doesn’t exist, but is becoming more and more rare.

Your ears will thank you when you get older and with good monitoring you will get to hear better what the crowd is hearing without the distraction of loud amps behind you. I am a Fender guy all the way down to my DNA and what I love about the Stangs is the lower volume one can play at and still get good Fender tone. Do my Mustangs sound as good as my DRRIs??? Yes and no.

For clean my DRRIs in my humble opinion win out and I am only comparing this with the Mustang 2 and the Mustang Floor. The Stangs however are *versatile* little beasts and are *fantastic* tools for the modern day guitarist, but the aforementioned problem regarding volume has been my Achilles heel for too many years so I am sticking with my Stangs for all of the reasons stated above.

Oh, and I still have ears which can actually hear and with this long post I only ask how are your eyes?


thank you for this. this is post of the year IMO on this forum.

may I politely suggest that you would like Mustang 4 even more? 2X12 celestians that can get LOUD (more on that in a few days when I get a minute)....a "full" tone at low volumes too.... I have never heard M2 but I have "heard" that (and seen it) the small box of course creates some boxiness to the tone....M4 is 47 pounds and can have thunderous low ends without even stressing the speakers (master on 5, preset vol on 8)...I tried it last night at a little gig I did ; )

Typed this fast because I should be working. In short: I understand using floor through PA or whatever might be great. If we are talking about grab-and-go combos, you might find that M4 blows away M2 because it actually has a near-twin-sized cab with good resonance (IMO) and decent 2X12 celestian speakers. M2 and even M3 (with all that power) have a small little boxy box. M4 is actually between the size of a deluxe and twin, I believe.

I got to turn mine up a little last night at a little open mic I did, and I was astonished by the low end I got while still being clear, not muddy.....and not even close to pushing what those speakers could have given me I don't believe.
Just using the twin model with gain on 3 (I like to start clean), and overdrive "pedal" (the modeled one inside the mustang) w/ level and gain around 6 or 8...... BAM......thunderous IMO.


Last edited by Her Wanna on Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: What is the "gain" on a real '65 Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:10 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Her Wanna,

Funny, I was at Guitar Center today and i should have spent some time with the Mustang 4 like you suggested but I had other worries. Anyway, i mentioned to my wife what you said about the 15% discount thingy so now we both know you and welcome to our family. LOL

To add to what you were saying about discounts, when the first Guitar Center showed up in my neck of the woods I immediately sat down with the manager in his office and negotiated a standard discount rate for everything with a *Go To* guy that would be my intermediary with all of the departments.

I was buying a ton of gear back then for my studio and going into Guitar Center used to make me nauseous. I bought all of my gear and equipment through this guy instead of the laborious bartering that would drive even Nascar's Danica Patrick crazy and it worked out really well and this Brit is a great guy, but Audix (microphones) eventually stole him away.

Have you ever spent time with the Mustang Floor? Having a tuner with a tap tempo and an expression pedal with nine foot switch buttons really can get you dancing on this thing along with great flexibility.

Oh, and congrats on your gig Her Wanna!

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Post subject: Re: What is the "gain" on a real '65 Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:55 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 pm
Posts: 532
Location: Here In Oregon
HIO wrote:
Her Wanna,

Funny, I was at Guitar Center today and i should have spent some time with the Mustang 4 like you suggested but I had other worries. Anyway, i mentioned to my wife what you said about the 15% discount thingy so now we both know you and welcome to our family. LOL

To add to what you were saying about discounts, when the first Guitar Center showed up in my neck of the woods I immediately sat down with the manager in his office and negotiated a standard discount rate for everything with a *Go To* guy that would be my intermediary with all of the departments.

I was buying a ton of gear back then for my studio and going into Guitar Center used to make me nauseous. I bought all of my gear and equipment through this guy instead of the laborious bartering that would drive even Nascar's Danica Patrick crazy and it worked out really well and this Brit is a great guy, but Audix (microphones) eventually stole him away.

Have you ever spent time with the Mustang Floor? Having a tuner with a tap tempo and an expression pedal with nine foot switch buttons really can get you dancing on this thing along with great flexibility.

Oh, and congrats on your gig Her Wanna!

Her Wanna,

Sorry I hit a speed *bump* :lol: and probably because i forgot to address my above post to you. My bad!!! Just curious though because you brought up the Mustang 4 to me. Have you tried out the Mustang Floor? It is okay if you haven't. :oops:

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Post subject: Re: What is the "gain" on a real '65 Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:42 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:58 pm
Posts: 739
HIO wrote:
HIO wrote:
Her Wanna,

Funny, I was at Guitar Center today and i should have spent some time with the Mustang 4 like you suggested but I had other worries. Anyway, i mentioned to my wife what you said about the 15% discount thingy so now we both know you and welcome to our family. LOL

To add to what you were saying about discounts, when the first Guitar Center showed up in my neck of the woods I immediately sat down with the manager in his office and negotiated a standard discount rate for everything with a *Go To* guy that would be my intermediary with all of the departments.

I was buying a ton of gear back then for my studio and going into Guitar Center used to make me nauseous. I bought all of my gear and equipment through this guy instead of the laborious bartering that would drive even Nascar's Danica Patrick crazy and it worked out really well and this Brit is a great guy, but Audix (microphones) eventually stole him away.

Have you ever spent time with the Mustang Floor? Having a tuner with a tap tempo and an expression pedal with nine foot switch buttons really can get you dancing on this thing along with great flexibility.

Oh, and congrats on your gig Her Wanna!

Her Wanna,

Sorry I hit a speed *bump* :lol: and probably because i forgot to address my above post to you. My bad!!! Just curious though because you brought up the Mustang 4 to me. Have you tried out the Mustang Floor? It is okay if you haven't. :oops:


no because I'm a beginner and M4 was my first decent amp and 2nd amp ever... I have no need for floor or plugging into PAs


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