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Post subject: Modelling Guitar Amp Speakers
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:33 am
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Hi Fender Mustang Users,

I'm a tube amp guy but I'm intrigued by digital modelling amps as a more convenient and versatile setup for home, studio and gig use. It would be great for live to have a range of different sounds programmed into the amp and to be able to switch through them during a gig, and to be able to DI the amp into the PA, using the amp speaker as my personal monitor that is independent of the sound going out front of house.

However, I'm intrigued that all these amps still seem to use a traditional guitar amp speaker. Traditional guitar amp speakers like the Celestion G12T-100 in the mustang III 100W color the sound of the amp quite a lot both in terms of the frequency response (they pick out the mids quite significantly) and the speaker itself can add break up if it is pushed really hard.

Now if you've modelled the guitar amplifier, speakers, microphone & mic positioning in your modelling amp, you'd have though the job of the amplifier and speaker after that would be to simply convert that digital representation of your ideal sound into vibrating air as accurately as possible. Not really what the Celestion G12T-100 is designed for.

So my question is, does the speaker in these mustang amps limit their versatility in modelling different amp and speaker combinations?


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Post subject: Re: Modelling Guitar Amp Speakers
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:49 am
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I have a Mustang IV and it short - no it doesn't limit. Could it be better if you swapped and put different speakers in? Perhaps. Could it be worse? Definitely. Pretty much every speaker will colour the sound a bit, but M4 is the most versatile amp I've ever played. I haven't tried putting in different speakers, but don't need to try anyway as I am more than satisfied with what I hear :)

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Post subject: Re: Modelling Guitar Amp Speakers
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:19 am
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OrangeBob wrote:
Hi Fender Mustang Users,

I'm a tube amp guy but I'm intrigued by digital modelling amps as a more convenient and versatile setup for home, studio and gig use. It would be great for live to have a range of different sounds programmed into the amp and to be able to switch through them during a gig, and to be able to DI the amp into the PA, using the amp speaker as my personal monitor that is independent of the sound going out front of house.

However, I'm intrigued that all these amps still seem to use a traditional guitar amp speaker. Traditional guitar amp speakers like the Celestion G12T-100 in the mustang III 100W color the sound of the amp quite a lot both in terms of the frequency response (they pick out the mids quite significantly) and the speaker itself can add break up if it is pushed really hard.

Now if you've modelled the guitar amplifier, speakers, microphone & mic positioning in your modelling amp, you'd have though the job of the amplifier and speaker after that would be to simply convert that digital representation of your ideal sound into vibrating air as accurately as possible. Not really what the Celestion G12T-100 is designed for.

So my question is, does the speaker in these mustang amps limit their versatility in modelling different amp and speaker combinations?



After some research, I discovered that:
-all presets and effects and cab emulations on the mustang have been conceived to accommodate for the coloration the celestion will create. In other words an inverse EQ curve is part of everything going through the celestion (but not thru the phones out, or line out)
-appart from coloration, guitar amp speakers have another characteristic compared to regular hi-fi speakers: they are incredibly sturdy. Particularly when it comes to clipped/overdriven sounds. Playing high volume overdriven sounds through a regular flat response speaker is the most efficient way to slowly destroy it :)
-chances are, if the amp came with a non guitar-amp speaker, many people will just dismiss the mustang as simply a toy (happened with the GDECs that came with two way Hi-Fi speakers)


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Post subject: Re: Modelling Guitar Amp Speakers
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:37 am
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Thanks for the reply's.

jedi2b, where did you hear that the amp/speaker models are compensated for the G12T speaker?

I think I'm toying with the idea of using a Fender mustang floor, with one set of outputs going to the PA, and another going to a powered wedge monitor. That way I can control the volume of the monitor independantly of the level going out of the PA. Does the mustang floor have speaker emulated output for both sets of outputs?


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Post subject: Re: Modelling Guitar Amp Speakers
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:57 am
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OrangeBob wrote:
Thanks for the reply's.

jedi2b, where did you hear that the amp/speaker models are compensated for the G12T speaker?

I think I'm toying with the idea of using a Fender mustang floor, with one set of outputs going to the PA, and another going to a powered wedge monitor. That way I can control the volume of the monitor independantly of the level going out of the PA. Does the mustang floor have speaker emulated output for both sets of outputs?



I was unable to quickly find a complete response coming from Fender in later posts in the forums, but take a look at this response I got from Fender a while ago:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=83653&p=945801&hilit=mustang+cab+voicing&sid=478fc3a3c70663a4eb9e5e96ee0ed0bb#p945801

in essence this means that the cab voicing thru XLR-OUT (or line out) is different from the voicing going directly thru the celestion.
Now even in that case, the Celestion speakers are limited to about 6-7 kHz, but that should not be a problem when it comes to reproducing guitar sounds. This means the Mustang would not be the best voice monitor for example, unless the input is HEAVILY equalized first.


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Post subject: Re: Modelling Guitar Amp Speakers
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:53 am
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I don't understand a word you just said.

But I know that M4 (v1) sounds like heaven.


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Post subject: Re: Modelling Guitar Amp Speakers
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:32 am
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Searching...found this thread:

http://forums.fender.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=68583&p=840421&hilit=mustang+speaker+match#p840421

With these important words from Alan Willey:

"The speakers installed in the Mustang Series combo amplifiers are
designed to be voiced specifically for each model."


Plus a lot about warranties, power handling, positive grounds, etc...but you get the point...they have included eq parameters for the stock speakers.

Cheers.

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Post subject: Re: Modelling Guitar Amp Speakers
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:48 pm
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jedi2b wrote:

-appart from coloration, guitar amp speakers have another characteristic compared to regular hi-fi speakers: they are incredibly sturdy. Particularly when it comes to clipped/overdriven sounds. Playing high volume overdriven sounds through a regular flat response speaker is the most efficient way to slowly destroy it :)


the sheer truth and i add : not just slowly destroy it but also very quickly if you accidentally, trigger a Larsen effect, a strong feedback ... goodbye tweeter in an instant!
Quote:
happened with the GDECs that came with two way Hi-Fi speakers

oh really? i didn't know it was underrated for that reason...


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Post subject: Re: Modelling Guitar Amp Speakers
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:22 am
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Quote:
Playing high volume overdriven sounds through a regular flat response speaker is the most efficient way to slowly destroy it

That's been mentioned before on this forum, and makes me wonder: so how come my home hi-fi speakers don't get destroyed when playing pre-recorded guitar music from CD, with lots of loud, overdriven, wailing sounds? Or put another way: why should a guitar, recorded to CD, then played back through hi-fi speakers, sound the same but have a different effect on those speakers compared to playing the same guitar through the same pre-amp / amp, just bypassing the recording-to-CD phase?

Quote:
Does the mustang floor have speaker emulated output for both sets of outputs?

I don't have an M-Floor, so I'm not the expert on this, but I think I recall this question arising before on this forum, with the answer being 'yes.' Does the (advanced) owners manual, or other info available on the Fender website, shed any light on this?


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Post subject: Re: Modelling Guitar Amp Speakers
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:21 am
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Hi Scott,

It should be because usually the recordings on CD or other media audio respect the maximum limit of 0 dB .. this , in the digital domain.
The distortion reproduced on the hi-fi system is only a representation that is within the limits of the maximum allowed. And in general the commercial records comply with that limit.

But for example in analog , studio tape recorders (but also tape decks in hi-fi) , you can go some dB above 0dB without incurring the clipping: at some point you'll get a nice bit of soft saturation and compression that was even desirable in analog recordings.

However, the distortion can occurs also in hi-fi circuit..
From a certain volume knob setting, the power will not increase more .. a given preamplifier could get the maximum power from the power amplifier with the knob to say halfway or even less, and from here is added distortion that at a certain level might be harmful especially for the tweeters.
However, if the recording is not "normalized" to 0 dB (for example those records that have a lower volume or DVD) you can (and need) to raise a lot more volume of the same amplifier without incurring distortion. It depends on the level of recordings.

Even an equalization wrong or too heavy can bring the amplifier to distort earlier.
I clearly remember years ago I was trying to remaster "live in Oakland - Animals tour" by Pink Floyd (a bootleg ). It was a cassette of a friend of mine ... the sound was of course all " piped " very boomy ..
I was able to equalize the sound by applying a clone (F.F.T. equalizer with a sampler/analyser feature) of the eq curve response of an official live recording, i think it was "Pulse" , and the result was beautiful, the definition and transparency was great, almost like being there...
but the problem was that new equalization generated distortion particularly in the tweeters as soon as there was the guitars solo parts.. (single guitar but expecially Stratocaster + Les Paul in unison) a kind of full fuzz tone .. so the tweeters were beginning to blow, to fizz and it was wise to turn down the volume quickly and make an equalization softer.


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