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Post subject: "Cut Through"
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:36 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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A few weeks ago, someone posted a link to an experiment where in a blind test folks picked a mustang over '65 DRRI for better tone a substantial % of the time. In fact, on that sound file played on computer speakers, the mustang unquestionably sounded better. It sounded crisper and clearer and the DRRI (or was it an original real '65 deluxe?) sounded muddy and almost under water in comparison...or like someone was holding a pillow over the deluxe's speakers.

But some tube fans then said "yeah but [the mustang's tone] would not cut through a mix" as if the much muddier sounding deluxe would have.

Why do folks say that? Is it not clear treble and mids (and volume), basically, that are needed to cut through a mix?

I have yet to find folks to form a band with so I've never had to cut through a mix, but my M4 (v1) seems to get ear piercingly loud with very sharp highs and mids, if I want that, with master volume only on about 5. I tried turning it up at the risk of bothering my neighbors for literally 20 seconds.....trying to imagine how a tube amp that sounds the same would magically "cut through" better if my amp is as loud and very "in your ear" treble sounding tone is there. I completely feel like I could solo with a band (assuming anyone wanted to hear my notes) using my 90s american setting or any of the clean amps with overdrive....

how could that one tube guy purport to think "that would not cut through" based on a recording where in the recording the mustang flat out sounded better?

I do understand that many admit modeling amps sound great for recording but claim it's at higher stage volume live application where it would be inferior.

I understand tube amp is supposed to give better dynamics and overtones for crunchier tones....ok...what if the M4 is so freaking powerful and loud that it can be loud enough without pushing itself too bad (none of this supposed clipping) and it's simply a freaking piercingly loud, clear, awesome tone, either clean or with overdrive??? That's not going to cut through a small-club band gig?

I'm posting this here with you mustang enthusiasts. They'd try to beat me up if I post this on the regular amp or general forum. :wink:


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Post subject: Re: "Cut Through"
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:52 pm
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Corksniffers unwilling to admit that a modeling amp can sound so good.

Especially ridiculous if talking about recording because as long as its tracked well, getting anything to “Cut” through is easily doable with skills and tools.

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Post subject: Re: "Cut Through"
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:03 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Location: Here In Oregon
I own two 65 Deluxe Reverbs and my Stangs cut through just fine. It is very subjective which sounds better and please remember opinions are like ears and everyone has two of them with an ear print to boot. Meaning, physiologically everyone has different ears and will hear things differently.

I love the versatility of my Stangs and love not changing tubes all of the time. I am green as well :mrgreen: and I live in Oregon.

Here In Oregon

HIO (Former Tube Snob in Recovery)

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Post subject: Re: "Cut Through"
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:42 am
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Many guitarists moving from tube amps to some form of amp modeling using a FRFR monitor have been unsatisfied with the lack of on stage presence and ability to cut through when competing with a guitarist using a "real" amp. That may be where they get that idea. Including the Mustang, I've used amp modelers like the GSP1101 into a power amp and guitar cabinet and they cut through like my tube amps. I'm not a fan of FRFR monitors but I do see their benefit and a lot of people like them.

Guitarist with limited experiencece, or experiencece and no sense, like to get a nice "bedroom" level tone that sounds good to them that may have a lot of gain, low end, pulled back mids and thick layers of effects. Take that to a live performance and you will in all likelihood not cut through very well. Tube amp or modeler.


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Post subject: Re: "Cut Through"
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:21 am
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Rock Star
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MJ Slaughter wrote:
Guitarist with limited experiencece, or experiencece and no sense, like to get a nice "bedroom" level tone that sounds good to them that may have a lot of gain, low end, pulled back mids and thick layers of effects. Take that to a live performance and you will in all likelihood not cut through very well. Tube amp or modeler.


Bingo! :wink:

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Post subject: Re: "Cut Through"
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:02 am
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What BS! There are just too many other factors that rule before you get to the Tube v. SolidState argument. Just too many other factors. In most large venues and studios digital IS the mix. The same people that pan modelers routinely use plugins in their DAWs (and the "D" stands for . . .). The "can't cut through the mix" statement makes little sense, and, anyway, what actually sits well in the mix can sometimes be inexplicable (recordings with the Shure SM57 come immediately to mind)---and there you go: exactly what mix are they talking about? On-stage? FOH? Recording?

Just too many other ruling factors.

Paj
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Post subject: Re: "Cut Through"
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:30 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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many guitar players (and even more bass players) make the mistake of adjusting their tone alone and then when playing with the band, most of the tone magic they got goes tru the window. It has nothing to do with tubes or anything like that. Is quite simply the overlap of frequencies that kills the tone the most.
The contrary is also true, I find nothing to sound nastier than the fuzz effects when playing alone, but they sound beautiful when playing with the band, for the same rasons.

Then finally, it is not surpirisng that people that paid 5 to 10 times more for their equipment try to justify to themselves the logic of their choice, this hardly applies only to guitar amps :)


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Post subject: Re: "Cut Through"
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:45 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Well that's the beauty of Mustangs, want your sound to cut through during a solo? Simply save a preset which will cut through and assign it to one of the QA buttons on footswitch :P I almost always select a different preset for solos (the preset being louder, having slightly more OD, some tape delay to make it sound even better, presence on the amp being set higher, etc.) so I can cut through without any problems :P Besides I can select all the different effects to come on with a click of just one button, if I had a tube amp I'd also need a multi-effects unit for that (or 10 legs at the same time) :)

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Post subject: Re: "Cut Through"
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:21 am
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Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:23 pm
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I record my Mustang V v2 A LOT, and I can say that when it is miked up witha sm57 or sm7b, you cannot here the difference between the mustang and the real deal. The tone will differ more by mic-choice, pre-amp choice and mic-position than the tone will differ from a mustang to the real deal.

I started out recording with Guitar Rig, then I started mic my practice amp and got stuck! Then I got my mustang AND BANG my mixes sounds terrific! I recently made some recordings that barely have to be EQ:ed at all to sound perfect! (btw the sm7b sounds terrific to modern metal, it's much less fizzzzzy sounding compared to a sm57, I use them both to make a perfect blend).


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Post subject: Re: "Cut Through"
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:31 am
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For the most part if I'm invisible in the mix, I increase the mids and then all is good.

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Post subject: Re: "Cut Through"
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:03 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:58 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
For the most part if I'm invisible in the mix, I increase the mids and then all is good.


ya dude and nobody ever gets close to maxing out this amp....master on 5 or 6...super loud. until someone tells me they put mids and treble on 10 and and master on 8 and couldn't cut through......

and this is a fair thing to say...people who gig princetons and even DRRIs do talk about "diming" it and wishing they had a bit more sometimes.

If you put a Mustang 4 using Bassman model with overdrive pedal (or even without), gain at 8, mids at 9 and treble at 10, bass down to 3, master volume at 7 (let alone 10)... and can't "cut through," you need to talk to your band about controlling stage volume. that would be ridiculous tear-your-eardrums piercing tone. I mean that would tear through ear plugs and still cause hearing loss I think.


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