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Post subject: EQ SETTING COMPENSATION FOR BACKING TRACKS? (AUX INPUT)
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:14 am
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Hi,

as we know the area of flat frequency response of the speaker Celestion G12-T100 (Mustang3 v2) is extended up to about 5500/6000 Hz (i don't remember the low frequency)

However, using frequency sweeps, with sine waves .. the speaker gradually weaker plays up about 15/16 Khz. Beyond 16/17 kHz do not know why my hearing does not come more to those ultra high frequency.
anyway I tried to compensate for the missing frequencies with a 10 band graphic equalizer on KMP Player on my notebook .. to play quite well (not hi-fi) songs.
In comparison eq off / on the result is remarkable, however, is still lacking something

... for example, during the applause you can hear a flanger resonance fixed type that sound like inside a pipeline .. so there is something to correct on the low-mid frequencies.

at the moment the eq graph has these settings:
60 hz : +4.1 dB
170 hz : +2.7 dB
310 hz : -0.7 dB
600 hz : -1.8 dB
1Khz : +1.3 dB
3Khz : +5.1 dB
6Khz : +7.2 dB
12 Khz : + 7.9 dB
14 Khz : + 8.6 dB
16 Khz : + 8.9 dB
a kind of loudness eq.. to compensate the lower frequencies and particularly the higher over 6000 Hz (perhaps even too much in some rock songs.. the sound can become a little harsh..)
This type of equalizer is set by dragging the mouse so the values ​​I got are approximate based on the steps selectable allowed .. I can not fine-tune in steps of 0.1 dB.
this is just a starting point to get a correct sound as much as possible...

From Fender i would like to get a suggestion too .. and for example where can I find the graph of the frequency response of the Celestion to make adjustments more targeted based on particular deeps and peaks.

many thanks to those who will help :)
Dimitri


Last edited by frondizi on Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: EQ SETTING COMPENSATION FOR BACKING TRACKS? (AUX INPUT)
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:27 am
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For the moment i found a datasheet (with freq response on 8 ohm load and logarithmic graph) of the Celestion G12-T Hot 100 .. it should be the new version of the g12-T100 .. but at today it is in catalog also another similar the G12-K100 ..

who knows if the speaker on Mustang has the same features and freq response of one of these and it is just a matter of aestethic difference (the Celestion logo label on the magnet)?

thanks
Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: EQ SETTING COMPENSATION FOR BACKING TRACKS? (AUX INPUT)
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:50 am
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frondizi wrote:
during the applause you can hear a flanger resonance fixed type that sound like inside a pipeline .. so there is something to correct on the low-mid frequencies.


What format is the media file? You might be hearing the effects of compression on an audio file. Try playing a store-purchased CD and see if you can still hear the flange.

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Post subject: Re: EQ SETTING COMPENSATION FOR BACKING TRACKS? (AUX INPUT)
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:30 am
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strings10927 wrote:
frondizi wrote:
during the applause you can hear a flanger resonance fixed type that sound like inside a pipeline .. so there is something to correct on the low-mid frequencies.


What format is the media file? You might be hearing the effects of compression on an audio file. Try playing a store-purchased CD and see if you can still hear the flange.


+1

you will definitely hear such artifacts on compressed files. Especially some MP3s depending on the bit rate.

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Post subject: Re: EQ SETTING COMPENSATION FOR BACKING TRACKS? (AUX INPUT)
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:10 am
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frondizi wrote:
For the moment i found a datasheet (with freq response on 8 ohm load and logarithmic graph) of the Celestion G12-T Hot 100 .. it should be the new version of the g12-T100 .. but at today it is in catalog also another similar the G12-K100 ..

who knows if the speaker on Mustang has the same features and freq response of one of these and it is just a matter of aestethic difference (the Celestion logo label on the magnet)?

thanks
Dimitri


Hi Dimitri,
you had an excellent idea!

This is the frequency response I have from the celestion model used in the Mustang 3 at least

Image

I would use WAV files and not MP3 as they have a LOT of sound artifacts that will not help you at all.
I was wondering, are you doing the analysis by ear or capturing the output via microphone and then doing spectral analysis with some software? if you capture the sound you are going to need to correct also for the frequency response of your microphone.


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Post subject: Re: EQ SETTING COMPENSATION FOR BACKING TRACKS? (AUX INPUT)
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:33 am
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Hi Jedi,
I knew you'd be interested in this!

No... nothing micking...
i was simply trying to do the compensation by ear... in the same way in past i did a very good job as sound engineer assistant in a simple live environment, creating a compensation curve to improve the sound from some stage monitors as it was so bad compared to correct flat response.. i used a digital graph equalizer with several freq bands (i think at least 20)
that group was friends o' mine, and expecially the guitar player, was grateful to this help. Those monitors without eq was unlistenable!

anyway... the songs archive plays on KMP player but i think could be another player or even audio editor software using a song at time and not a playlist.. : audacity or better my reliable old good Adobe Audition 3 that now i remember, has also a 10-20-30 bands graph equalizer with wide variable dB range for every frequency.. for example setting 48dB : you get -24dB +24 dB range )

Yes, it is an excellent idea to play reference wav files .. however for that lo-fi speaker would be enough also high-rate mp3 from 128K (min) and up, for what concerns the work of initial approximation (and it is already much) ... while to have a higher accuracy wav files are definitely needed.

thanks
Dimitri


Last edited by frondizi on Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: EQ SETTING COMPENSATION FOR BACKING TRACKS? (AUX INPUT)
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:00 pm
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frondizi wrote:
Yes, it is an excellent idea to play reference wav files .. however for that lo-fi speaker would be enough also high-rate mp3 from 128K (min) and up

The suggestion of using WAV (a non-compressed format) was in response to:

frondizi wrote:
... for example, during the applause you can hear a flanger resonance fixed type that sound like inside a pipeline .. so there is something to correct on the low-mid frequencies.

Compressed files can sound just like you described, "a flanger resonance fixed type that sound like inside a pipeline", so if you find that sound undesirable, perhaps try using a WAV file and see if that's what's causing the 'flanger' sound.

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Post subject: Re: EQ SETTING COMPENSATION FOR BACKING TRACKS? (AUX INPUT)
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:09 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
frondizi wrote:
Yes, it is an excellent idea to play reference wav files .. however for that lo-fi speaker would be enough also high-rate mp3 from 128K (min) and up

The suggestion of using WAV (a non-compressed format) was in response to:

frondizi wrote:
... for example, during the applause you can hear a flanger resonance fixed type that sound like inside a pipeline .. so there is something to correct on the low-mid frequencies.

Compressed files can sound just like you described, "a flanger resonance fixed type that sound like inside a pipeline", so if you find that sound undesirable, perhaps try using a WAV file and see if that's what's causing the 'flanger' sound.


Hi,
thanks for your suggestions!
Well.. before I had never heard that resonance, while listening on the system (a Pioneer A / V system) on the recent car. Not even I happened to hear it on the powered speakers (Subw + 2 satellites) of pc .. rather they are very good quality sound files.
After all, it is easy that you create a resonance, if, for mistake is emphasized a particular frequency of the speaker, and instead there is a peak that should be attenuated to have a much flatter response ..
Anyway.. first I will try to use Wav files from original cds to exclude artifacts from the conversion / compression of some downloaded mp3(conversion done by someone else), otherwise I will have to try to figure out which is the center frequency in the low-mid freq to work to restore naturalness to the sound.

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: EQ SETTING COMPENSATION FOR BACKING TRACKS? (AUX INPUT)
Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:16 pm
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Hi,
this evening i noticed that with a Wav file as "Ocean Waves" (nature sounds cd) there was the same resonance we was talking about.. i usually play that cd not just to relax but also to do burn-in of equipments/ loudspeakers.. because the ocean is substantially white noise with the whole spectrum of audible frequencies.
If appears the resonance also in some parts of it (crashing waves) , probably as i said there is a peak and its frequency to identify and attenuate with equalizer.

The only little problem at the moment that i'm trying to solve, is that free players i have in my notebook seems to don't see the external VST plugins as free graph equalizers that would be more complete e accurate than the 10 bands eq included for example in KMP Player. VLC for what i know doesn't accept plugins. WinAmp also doesn't see external plugins.. perhaps something is missing in my operative system... windows 7 - 64 bit but is the same situation also in pc with Seven Ultimate 32 bit.
On the other hand Adobe Audition 3 can plays an audio file with plugins in real time (such as 30 bands graph eq) so it is possible with patience to shape a good eq curve of compensaction.
But it is not a music player, it is an editor/sequencer, so you can't have features as a playlist to play along with the backing tracks or simply with a song after the other.

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: EQ SETTING COMPENSATION FOR BACKING TRACKS? (AUX INPUT)
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:01 am
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OK with the quality of the media file ruled out, that leaves the fact that it's a guitar amp with a Celestion speaker- not a hifi stereo.

I think of it like a hybrid bicycle. They are designed to be able to ride on trails, and also on roads. But they don't do either particularity well, because they had to sacrifice from each to make it more versatile.
In the case of the Mustang amps, it seems they sacrificed more from the 'playing media files' department so it would be a better guitar amp overall.

You might be able to clean up the sound a little more than you already have, but the main issue you're hearing right now is some unwanted 'flanging' during applause and ocean waves. Is that really an issue for you when practicing?

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Post subject: Re: EQ SETTING COMPENSATION FOR BACKING TRACKS? (AUX INPUT)
Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:36 pm
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strings10927 wrote:

You might be able to clean up the sound a little more than you already have, but the main issue you're hearing right now is some unwanted 'flanging' during applause and ocean waves. Is that really an issue for you when practicing?


Hi,
sorry if i replied some days after... i didn't notice your reply..

You're right, is not really an issue when i'm practising... it's just my point of view as passionate about sound engineering ... ( i'm also a fan of Alan Parsons.)

moreover, in a few days will come here my guitar teacher to try Mustang3 v2 with its control pedals EXP-1 + switches, and I would like that he hear a good sound if we put a backing track ..
other than that, actually is a pure personal satisfaction.

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: EQ SETTING COMPENSATION FOR BACKING TRACKS? (AUX INPUT)
Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:15 am
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it will surely be a really cool rig if/when you get it sorted out. Sorry I can't be more help, I've actually never plugged a media player into my aux.

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Post subject: Re: EQ SETTING COMPENSATION FOR BACKING TRACKS? (AUX INPUT)
Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:03 pm
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frondizi wrote:
Hi,

as we know the area of flat frequency response of the speaker Celestion G12-T100 (Mustang3 v2) is extended up to about 5500/6000 Hz (i don't remember the low frequency)

However, using frequency sweeps, with sine waves .. the speaker gradually weaker plays up about 15/16 Khz. Beyond 16/17 kHz do not know why my hearing does not come more to those ultra high frequency.
anyway I tried to compensate for the missing frequencies with a 10 band graphic equalizer on KMP Player on my notebook .. to play quite well (not hi-fi) songs.
In comparison eq off / on the result is remarkable, however, is still lacking something

... for example, during the applause you can hear a flanger resonance fixed type that sound like inside a pipeline .. so there is something to correct on the low-mid frequencies.

at the moment the eq graph has these settings:
60 hz : +4.1 dB
170 hz : +2.7 dB
310 hz : -0.7 dB
600 hz : -1.8 dB
1Khz : +1.3 dB
3Khz : +5.1 dB
6Khz : +7.2 dB
12 Khz : + 7.9 dB
14 Khz : + 8.6 dB
16 Khz : + 8.9 dB
a kind of loudness eq.. to compensate the lower frequencies and particularly the higher over 6000 Hz (perhaps even too much in some rock songs.. the sound can become a little harsh..)
This type of equalizer is set by dragging the mouse so the values ​​I got are approximate based on the steps selectable allowed .. I can not fine-tune in steps of 0.1 dB.
this is just a starting point to get a correct sound as much as possible...

From Fender i would like to get a suggestion too .. and for example where can I find the graph of the frequency response of the Celestion to make adjustments more targeted based on particular deeps and peaks.

many thanks to those who will help :)
Dimitri



for those using ableton live (comes free with the amp) as DAW I have made an EQ preset that you may apply to your master output that follows Frondizi's recommendation.
I think just droping the file on this path should be enough, if not you need to import it:
C:\Users\ABCDE\Documents\Ableton\Library\Presets\Audio Effects\EQ Eight\Instrument

this is the preset file, it uses the 8 band EQ that comes with ableton live free
http://www.fileswap.com/dl/WLmnTd3x9U/


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Post subject: Re: EQ SETTING COMPENSATION FOR BACKING TRACKS? (AUX INPUT)
Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:13 pm
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One thing you have to note when doing a comparison by ear - a human ear is designed in such a way that sounds under 20 Hz and over 20 kHz will be undetectable to any ear, no matter the volume of the sound.

We did an experiment last year at uni, the majority of students in my class couldn't hear anything below 30 Hz and most people stopped hearing anything above 13-14 kHz with the volume seemingly decreasing all the time (despite actual volume staying the same). So the borders 20 Hz and 20 kHz exist in theory, but in reality your ear most likely won't hear stuff over 14 kHz. Again the sound's volume will appear to be decreasing due to our ears not being adjusted to hear such high frequencies. It's simple biology and physics really. It's the same reason that causes us not being able to hear whales communicating (as their vocal range is out of our ear range) despite their communication being responsible for a lot of headaches while traveling via oceans - the sound is there, it affects us, we just can't hear it.

I could be wrong, but I think that this is your main problem - not hearing those frequencies or hearing them as a lot more quiet than frequencies around 1 kHz?
In either case - even if the speakers don't respond that well to those frequencies - it doesn't matter as most people can't pick up frequencies that high/low ;)

I hope that helps.

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Post subject: Re: EQ SETTING COMPENSATION FOR BACKING TRACKS? (AUX INPUT)
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:47 am
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Hi Neimenljivi,
thanks for your contribution!
generally speaking, the higher frequencies in music reproduction contribute to the vividness and realism of the scene ... for example you can not hear an harmonic at 30000 Hz, as several years ago pointed out to me my teacher of sound engineering, but that harmonic regardless of whether i hears it or do not hear, it will modulate a fundamental frequency at 100 Hz.
So that bass note will sound different, more "beautiful" and natural, probably.
i'm talking about hi-fi loudspeakers not guitar speaker.

by the way...
about very high frequencies emitted .. not only whales but also dolphins which are said to have even healing frequencies.
then there's Mariah ... Also her to be human, not joking at all in terms of high frequencies that can sing. Maybe a chat with the dolphins might even be able to do it. :lol:

Dimitri


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